Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

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What generally desribes your religious beliefs?

Agnosticism
6
8%
Atheism
32
42%
Bahá'í Faith
0
No votes
Buddhism
1
1%
Christianity (including LDS and Jehovah's Witnesses)
8
11%
Confucianism
0
No votes
Hinduism
1
1%
Islam
1
1%
Jainism
0
No votes
Judaism
3
4%
Shinto
0
No votes
Sikhism
0
No votes
Taoism
1
1%
European polytheism
3
4%
Wicca
0
No votes
New Age spirituality
1
1%
Other
6
8%
None
13
17%
 
Total votes: 76

yggdrasil
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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby yggdrasil » 2013-08-29, 15:56

mōdgethanc wrote:Nothing divine about it. I believe harming others, or allowing them to come to harm, is self-evidently wrong. Russia is at least doing the latter here.


I think the gays marching on the streets of cities do harm to children. What do you think about it?

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linguoboy
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Re: What religion do you follow? 2nd edition

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-29, 16:22

yggdrasil wrote:Again, the law we are talking about is not aimed against any social group. It does not punish people for being gay, straight whatever. It only prohibits certain activities, no matter who performs them. Nobody is persecuting the gays for being gay. Sexual orientation is strictly a private matter. But social activity is not. It is just the social activity the law regulates. If I were in minority I would still obey the law and did not do anything violating it. I would try to convince the majority to change the situation in a legal manner.

And what would that be in this situation? Any campaigning to repeal the law can be prosecuted as a violation of the law itself. It's a Catch-22.

yggdrasil wrote:And if it were not possible I would leave the country.

You love Russia, but you would simply accept having to leave it because the majority there was unwilling to respect your civil rights? Sorry, but I really doubt your sincerity.

yggdrasil wrote:BTW, the vikings despised the gays.

Source? (And, please, this time try to pick an actual historian rather than a writer of popular detective stories.)

Meanwhile, this happened. And here's a line from the article which could've been written by ydggdrasil himself: "Her deputy Batalina said she did not consider she had been offended, but was seeking to protect all lawmakers from any further insults." Remember, it's not important to prosecute the actual crimes of politicians like graft, influence peddling, or judicial meddling. What's important is that we take a strong stand against the possibility that they might have their feelings hurt at some unspecified future date.

yggdrasil wrote:I think the gays marching on the streets of cities do harm to children. What do you think about it?

I think that you haven't explained why you think that, let alone presented any sound evidence that this is more than an irrational prejudice on your part.
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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby Lur » 2013-08-29, 20:31

yggdrasil wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:Nothing divine about it. I believe harming others, or allowing them to come to harm, is self-evidently wrong. Russia is at least doing the latter here.


I think the gays marching on the streets of cities do harm to children. What do you think about it?

I think people like you do harm to children.

Johanna wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:Wait, really? I've been reading about Norse mythology ever since I was a kid and I never knew it was feminine. Is the tree itself seen as female?

Yep, it is.

Interesting, I didn't know that.
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Re: What religion do you follow? 2nd edition

Postby Yserenhart » 2013-08-29, 21:55

yggdrasil wrote:Again, the law we are talking about is not aimed against any social group. It does not punish people for being gay, straight whatever. It only prohibits certain activities, no matter who performs them. Nobody is persecuting the gays for being gay. Sexual orientation is strictly a private matter. But social activity is not. It is just the social activity the law regulates. If I were in minority I would still obey the law and did not do anything violating it. I would try to convince the majority to change the situation in a legal manner. And if it were not possible I would leave the country.

The law we are talking about punishes people for offending others, and it just so happens that particular social groups are being most affected by it.

And pray tell, how do you go about trying to convince the majority to change the situation when just stating your beliefs publicly can get you years in jail, before you're even able to debate the merits of them and thus maybe convince anyone of anything?


If I offended someone I apologize. If it is not sufficient the offended side may try to file a lawsuit against me. In this case he should provide evidence of my crime and defend the case in court. He may win or may lose. That's how legal system works. Any other suggestions?

I do have another suggestion, answer the question and follow the point I was making.

For clarification: the green of my name denotes that I am an admin here on these forums, and therefore I am acting as the judge of this little trial. The charges have already been bought, I've already decided you offended at least one person, and now I'm letting you choose whether or not you should be punished. As I stated before, I'm expecting that choice reflects on how you truly believe in regards to using a law to punish incitement of enmity for prosecuting and convicting people for having differing opinions that merely offend people, without actually causing them harm. So once more, am I to give you a ban of the same term as you would have in jail were this Russia and you were found guilty, or do I not ban you, given that using a law about enmity to prosecute for simple offence is at best a very liberal interpretation, and at worst systematic discrimination and silencing of opposing opinion to the majority.

yggdrasil wrote:The fact that as you say most Nordics are pro-LGBT only shows how far away you have gone from your spriritual heritage. It is a question who deserves more to use Norse symbols: modern days Scandinavians or Russians. Anyway I don't think that symbols belong to you in the sense of intellectual property. Picking any symbol does not contradict the rules of this forum. I have chosen it because I admire Norse mythology. BTW, the vikings despised the gays. But I like Norse languages and myths not because of that. My attitude towards the gays is neutral.
You are saying that Yggdrasil is feminine name? Grammatically it is not. Are there girls are called Yggdrasil? Funny.

It says nothing about how far gone Scandinavians are from their spiritual heritage. Almost everything we know that was written down about homosexuality in Scandinavia comes from the post-Christian conversion, written down by Christian missionaries primarily. Even then, the earliest things written seem to say that only being the passive, receiving male was shameful, and it is said that Sinfjotli even boasted of his partaking in homosexual behaviour, so the active role at least was seen as perfectly acceptable, and indeed, it seems there may be evidence to suggest that as long as one was able to do his (or her) job in the society, and produced offspring in marriage, then any sexual relations outside that were accepted, regardless of the sexuality of them, especially so amongst the farmers, even if not amongst the warriors.

Hallakarva, G. The Vikings and Homosexuality
Greenburg, D. The Construction of Homosexuality (pages 242-250)
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yggdrasil
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Re: What religion do you follow? 2nd edition

Postby yggdrasil » 2013-08-30, 10:06

Yserenhart wrote:
yggdrasil wrote:Again, the law we are talking about is not aimed against any social group. It does not punish people for being gay, straight whatever. It only prohibits certain activities, no matter who performs them. Nobody is persecuting the gays for being gay. Sexual orientation is strictly a private matter. But social activity is not. It is just the social activity the law regulates. If I were in minority I would still obey the law and did not do anything violating it. I would try to convince the majority to change the situation in a legal manner. And if it were not possible I would leave the country.

The law we are talking about punishes people for offending others, and it just so happens that particular social groups are being most affected by it.

And pray tell, how do you go about trying to convince the majority to change the situation when just stating your beliefs publicly can get you years in jail, before you're even able to debate the merits of them and thus maybe convince anyone of anything?


Well, I can imagine a debate calling for revision of the law without actually advertising homosexual relationships. These are different things. Public debate is not against the law. Such debates are routinely going on on TV and everywhere.

For clarification: the green of my name denotes that I am an admin here on these forums, and therefore I am acting as the judge of this little trial. The charges have already been bought, I've already decided you offended at least one person, and now I'm letting you choose whether or not you should be punished. As I stated before, I'm expecting that choice reflects on how you truly believe in regards to using a law to punish incitement of enmity for prosecuting and convicting people for having differing opinions that merely offend people, without actually causing them harm. So once more, am I to give you a ban of the same term as you would have in jail were this Russia and you were found guilty, or do I not ban you, given that using a law about enmity to prosecute for simple offence is at best a very liberal interpretation, and at worst systematic discrimination and silencing of opposing opinion to the majority.


No. I don't support silencing opinions contradicting that of the majority. But I do support legislation that prohibits spreading information aimed at undermining social morale in Russia. There is a "red line" as they say in America. As for other countries I don't care. It is not my business. I can only say, and this is my private opinion, that widespread homosexuality in the Western countries is a clear indication of moral decline and tendency to self-destruction of the West. Homosexuality presents a completely distorted image of what human sexual relationships should be. Advertising of homosexuality is harmful to children. It is our duty to protect them against such unwanted information.
Why should you ban me? I didn't address anyone using derogatory names, did not express hatred or anything of that sort. If you are going to ban me just because you don't agree with what I say that speaks a lot about your understanding of freedom of speech. But if the majority will decide that I should be banned - ok, I will accept it and have no hard feelings.

It says nothing about how far gone Scandinavians are from their spiritual heritage. Almost everything we know that was written down about homosexuality in Scandinavia comes from the post-Christian conversion, written down by Christian missionaries primarily. Even then, the earliest things written seem to say that only being the passive, receiving male was shameful, and it is said that Sinfjotli even boasted of his partaking in homosexual behaviour, so the active role at least was seen as perfectly acceptable, and indeed, it seems there may be evidence to suggest that as long as one was able to do his (or her) job in the society, and produced offspring in marriage, then any sexual relations outside that were accepted, regardless of the sexuality of them, especially so amongst the farmers, even if not amongst the warriors.


As far as I know Old Norse had special derogatory terms describing passive male homosexuals: argr and others. Not sure about active ones. Maybe they were tolerated. Anyway that does mean the traditional Scandinavian society accepted gays in the modern sense of the word.

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md0
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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby md0 » 2013-08-30, 10:11

Why should you ban me? I didn't address anyone using derogatory names, did not express hatred or anything of that sort. If you are going to ban me just because you don't agree with what I say that speaks a lot about your understanding of freedom of speech.

Oh sweet mothers of Irony (that's right, Irony has two mothers).
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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby Set » 2013-08-30, 10:28

yggdrasil wrote:widespread homosexuality in the Western countries is a clear indication of moral decline and tendency to self-destruction of the West.

How? What you're saying is completely devoid of real meaning and so I guess you're just repeating what someone else has said.
You could say that there is a religious decline in the West, but religion =/= morality. I think someone who spends time to think for themselves is much more morally sound than someone who just repeats what some religious or self-proclaimed 'moral' authority has spewed out.

As a community we can kick you out without harming your freedom of speech. You can still regurgitate this hate elsewhere, it's positively encouraged in some communities, why don't you go there instead? And your opinions are beyond insulting, they're harmful since you're supporting acts of violence and oppression.
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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby md0 » 2013-08-30, 10:29

As a community we can kick you out without harming your freedom of speech. You opinions are beyond insulting, they're harmful since you're supporting acts of violence and oppression.


You missed Yser's point.
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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby Set » 2013-08-30, 10:37

No I didn't. I mean that if he is banned from this site it's not comparable to what's happening in Russia. This is a voluntary virtual community and he doesn't have a 'right' to be here, he can carry on living perfectly normally without being on here. It's not to do with freedom of speech.
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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-08-30, 11:44

Why should he be banned? I, for one, wanted to hear reasoning behind his thoughts. He did not wish to insult anyone, he's not a bad person, he just has some attitudes that are completely normal in his country and not normal in your countries. Show some understanding.

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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby yggdrasil » 2013-08-30, 12:09

meidei wrote:
As a community we can kick you out without harming your freedom of speech. You opinions are beyond insulting, they're harmful since you're supporting acts of violence and oppression.


You missed Yser's point.



It seems you missed mine. I wanted to say that freedom of speech is relative depending on the situation. Linguoboy & Co say it is absolute. The irony is that it is Yser who alledgedly speaks on behalf of the freedom of speech tries to ban me. If he does so, I win because I say yes, freedom of speech is relative. Everyone tries to silence the opponent by administrative means when he runs out arguments. Those who say freedom is absolute must hold to it all the time. Doing otherwise is called hypocrisy. Ranting about freedom of speech and at the same time trying to quench the opposition. Is that freedom of speech? I can even speculate about hypocrisy as the main pillar of Western power. But it is of course if I won't be banned from this place. Let's see freedom of speech in action.

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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby md0 » 2013-08-30, 12:19

And the irony simply won't stop :)

You really can't see your double standards, do you? Supporting banning pro-homosexual talk is acceptable because it's our culture, but somehow supporting banning anti-homosexual talk is a lack of understanding?

Show some understanding.

Does he show some understanding towards his fellow gay Russians? Forget the West. We are not the West and we know it damn well. There are gay Russians. Their feelings are less important than non-gay Russians'? If he believes that the feelings of people should be protected by the State, how can he say that gay Russians should shut up and/or leave the country if they want dignity?


Those who say freedom is absolute must hold to it all the time.


I strongly believe that this was Yser's point. That despite you being the offending person here (just like gays are in Russia), he wasn't going to ban you for that reason. But if you didn't had double standards, you would realise that just like it would be wrong to ban you, it is wrong for Russia to silence gay citizens.

EDIT: Okay, I see it's just going to be a West vs East thing. Cold War never ended eh. Well, that's what I get for keep trying to explain stuff to dogmatic people.
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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby yggdrasil » 2013-08-30, 12:25

Set wrote:
yggdrasil wrote:widespread homosexuality in the Western countries is a clear indication of moral decline and tendency to self-destruction of the West.

How? What you're saying is completely devoid of real meaning and so I guess you're just repeating what someone else has said.
You could say that there is a religious decline in the West, but religion =/= morality. I think someone who spends time to think for themselves is much more morally sound than someone who just repeats what some religious or self-proclaimed 'moral' authority has spewed out.


That's right. But I have come to that conclusion not at once. It is the result of long observations. I am sorry that it hurts you, but that's what I think. I don't want to insult personally you or anyone. I am trying to show you that different opinions have the right to exist.

As a community we can kick you out without harming your freedom of speech. You can still regurgitate this hate elsewhere, it's positively encouraged in some communities, why don't you go there instead? And your opinions are beyond insulting, they're harmful since you're supporting acts of violence and oppression.


Objection! I never supported violence and oppression. If you re-read my posts I have always defended the position of law. In case of Pussy Riot it was them who committed an act of violence.
It seems your understanding of freedom of speech changes to fit the situation. In other words you agree to grant full freedom of speech to those who pleases you, but you are trying to silence anyone with whom you disagree. My position is different.

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md0
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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby md0 » 2013-08-30, 12:34

In other words you agree to grant full freedom of speech to those who pleases you, but you are trying to silence anyone with whom you disagree.


No, that's what you want to believe that I think. I have no problem with you saying all that. I disagree with you but I wouldn't ban you for that. As long as you are not threatening someone in particular or a group of people in general, no problem.
It's you who says that gay people should remain silent or move out of Russia because it will offend most Russians if they live their lives without hiding.
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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-30, 12:37

yggdrasil wrote:That's right. But I have come to that conclusion not at once.

You still haven't explained how you came to this conclusion. Every time someone asks you to clarify what actual "harm" you think homosexuality causes, they get another weasely answer.

yggdrasil wrote:Objection! I never supported violence and oppression. If you re-read my posts I have always defended the position of law. In case of Pussy Riot it was them who committed an act of violence.

Overruled! You charged Pussy Riot with committing "spiritual violence" because they expressed views which a majority of Russians strongly disagree with. You have expressed views which a majority of members of this forum strongly disagree with. If Pussy Riot are guilty of "violence", then so are you and--according to you own interpretation of the law--should be punished.

And yet you still have the chutzpah to cry "hypocrisy".
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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby yggdrasil » 2013-08-30, 12:43

meidei wrote:And the irony simply won't stop :)

You really can't see your double standards, do you? Supporting banning pro-homosexual talk is acceptable because it's our culture, but somehow supporting banning anti-homosexual talk is a lack of understanding?

Show some understanding.

Does he show some understanding towards his fellow gay Russians? Forget the West. We are not the West and we know it damn well. There are gay Russians. Their feelings are less important than non-gay Russians'? If he believes that the feelings of people should be protected by the State, how can he say that gay Russians should shut up and/or leave the country if they want dignity?


Those who say freedom is absolute must hold to it all the time.


I strongly believe that this was Yser's point. That despite you being the offending person here (just like gays are in Russia), he wasn't going to ban you for that reason. But if you didn't had double standards, you would realise that just like it would be wrong to ban you, it is wrong for Russia to silence gay citizens.

EDIT: Okay, I see it's just going to be a West vs East thing. Cold War never ended eh. Well, that's what I get for keep trying to explain stuff to dogmatic people.


You still don't get me. Yes, I think double standards is the rule. Everyone uses double standards. It is you who does not want to recognize it and pretends being objective.
Yes, I think it is right to prohibit the gays in Russia to spread their propaganda, because the majority wants that. That how democracy works. Absolute freedom is utopian. In some cases it can and should be restricted, especially when there is consesus in the society regarding the issue.
No, I should not be banned from this place, because:
1. It is against YOUR (not mine) idea that freedom of speech is absolute. If it is behave accordingly, otherwise it is the same double standards I am talking of.
2. I have not said anything personally insulting anyone. Despite that linguoboy called me a nut.
3. There was no voting.

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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-30, 12:52

yggdrasil wrote:Yes, I think it is right to prohibit the gays in Russia to spread their propaganda, because the majority wants that. That how democracy works.

That's not "democracy", that's tyranny of the majority. All functioning democracies recognise that there are some principles which are not up for a democratic vote. 99% of the US population could vote to execute Kim Kardashian for being a waste of skin and it wouldn't matter because there is no legal grounds whatever for carrying out such a decision.

yggdrasil wrote:Despite that linguoboy called me a nut.

I did? Where?
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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-08-30, 12:56

meidei wrote:
Show some understanding.

Does he show some understanding towards his fellow gay Russians? Forget the West. We are not the West and we know it damn well. There are gay Russians. Their feelings are less important than non-gay Russians'? If he believes that the feelings of people should be protected by the State, how can he say that gay Russians should shut up and/or leave the country if they want dignity?

А у вас негров линчуют! Just because he's not showing understanding doesn't mean that you shouldn't. Two wrongs don't make a right.

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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby Set » 2013-08-30, 12:59

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
meidei wrote:
Show some understanding.

Does he show some understanding towards his fellow gay Russians? Forget the West. We are not the West and we know it damn well. There are gay Russians. Their feelings are less important than non-gay Russians'? If he believes that the feelings of people should be protected by the State, how can he say that gay Russians should shut up and/or leave the country if they want dignity?

А у вас негров линчуют! Just because he's not showing understanding doesn't mean that you shouldn't. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Actually I think he does understand, that doesn't mean he has to accept it.
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Re: Your religious beliefs (or lack thereof)

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-30, 13:02

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Just because he's not showing understanding doesn't mean that you shouldn't. Two wrongs don't make a right.

That's true enough as far as it goes. But sometimes wronging someone is the only way to get them to realise how they're wronging others. Have you never heard the saying, "A liberal is just a conservative who's been booked"?
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