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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2013-01-13, 18:21
by Lur
BlackZ wrote:I think it depends on how traumatic their independence will be. The same apply for a possible independence of Catalunya, Euskara

Euskara is the language, the parts where it's spoken are called Euskal Herria (The current Euskal Herria is smaller than the nationalist Euskal Herria*, and the maximun Euskal Herria is bigger than the nationalist Euskal Herria. That's why I'm not that fond lately of th nationalist version.) *When they talk about independence they normally refer to Navarre, Alava, Vizcaya and San Sebastián plus a bit in what it's now France that used to be Navarre.

BlackZ wrote: From my point of view as a foreigner, today Spain seems more repressive than UK regarding to independence.

The problem is that Spain was never "well organized" in parts like the UK seems to be to me as a foreigner. When I look at them, I see Scotland (and it's dfferent parts), Wales, England (Northen and Southern) and even Cornwall is you don't see it as England. Maybe one could argue about details about what criteria exactly constitute these parts and what should be their correct extension.

Spanish history is more confusing. The only region well delimited seems to be Portugal. Probably Aragon (although none of the three local languages are official and only one is spoken), Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands. My guess is that the problem comes from making our particular England, Castile, lose it's identity. Calling the language "Spanish" (imagine calling English "British", the problem being that it catched on), breaking it's territory in every way possible, mixing it up with other territories (Leon), and in general a socioeconomic delay for quite a while except in the Basque zone and Catalonia. It doesn't help that the languages other than Castilian and Portuguese have had their fair share of problems, and that the population at large is a bit at a loss with their own cultures and history.

Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2013-01-13, 20:14
by JackFrost
BlackZ wrote:From my point of view as a foreigner, today Spain seems more repressive than UK regarding to independence.

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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2013-01-13, 21:27
by Lur
That guy... uugh...

Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2013-01-13, 22:05
by JackFrost
And this woman...

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Anyways, pleased to know that we share a mutual contempt for the PP (as I assume from your comment). 8-)

Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2013-01-14, 3:22
by linguoboy
Garethw87 wrote:And if Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland all become independent over night I don't think you'll find too many people that would be bothered. Obviously the Government would, as they'd lose out on taxes but

But the amount of tax they raise in these three countries is less than the amount they get back in public expenditure. Public expenditure per capita is lowest in England (£8,491) and highest in Northern Ireland (£10,625). But GVA (Gross Value Added, a measure of local production) is the opposite, standing at £20,357 per head in England and ranging to low of £14,842 for Wales. In effect, economic activity in England (and, more precisely, the South East, since there are similarly striking imbalances within the country) is subsidising the rest of the UK.

The only questionable case is Scotland, which only consumes more in public expenditure than it generates in revenues if earnings from petroleum are excluded. Naturally, the Scottish government lays claim to these resources. Just as naturally, so does the government of the United Kingdom. So if Scotland became independent "overnight", the chances of it retaining all revenues from oil extracted within its territory are slim.

Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2013-01-14, 3:42
by md0
And this is why I believe in federalism less and less. And I know UK is not a federated nation, but it's similar. Were I a Brit, I would feel more safe if UK was a single Republic with England, Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland be super-regions.

Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2013-01-14, 8:46
by Saim
Garethw87 wrote:Back to topic.. If Wales/Scotland became independent it would be interesting to see if they set up any border restrictions for us English, and whether they'd class us as immigrants :hmm:

If you ask the Scottish National Party (the ruling party and the only nationalist party in the Parliament), that definitely won't happen. It's all the EU anyway (unless England pulls out... but even then, I'm sure they'd come to some free trade and movement accord, given how much trade is done between Scotland and England).

Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2013-01-14, 9:01
by Saim
Luke wrote:
BlackZ wrote:I think it depends on how traumatic their independence will be. The same apply for a possible independence of Catalunya, Euskara

Euskara is the language, the parts where it's spoken are called Euskal Herria (The current Euskal Herria is smaller than the nationalist Euskal Herria*, and the maximun Euskal Herria is bigger than the nationalist Euskal Herria. That's why I'm not that fond lately of th nationalist version.) *When they talk about independence they normally refer to Navarre, Alava, Vizcaya and San Sebastián plus a bit in what it's now France that used to be Navarre.

Are you including La Rioja and northern Aragon then? It's strange that there don't seem to be any nationalists that claim those areas, when they're already claiming southern Navarre. From a superficial look at the history I don't think historically Aragonese-speaking southern Navarre would be any more Basque than La Rioja or parts of Aragon.

BlackZ wrote: From my point of view as a foreigner, today Spain seems more repressive than UK regarding to independence.

The problem is that Spain was never "well organized" in parts like the UK seems to be to me as a foreigner. When I look at them, I see Scotland (and it's dfferent parts), Wales, England (Northen and Southern) and even Cornwall is you don't see it as England. Maybe one could argue about details about what criteria exactly constitute these parts and what should be their correct extension.

Spanish history is more confusing. The only region well delimited seems to be Portugal. Probably Aragon (although none of the three local languages are official and only one is spoken), Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands. My guess is that the problem comes from making our particular England, Castile, lose it's identity.

That's definitely true. You have the Catalans, Basques, Galicians and "the rest of Spain". Then there's a million different minor nationalisms in every other autonomous community - in Castile and Leon you have Leonese regionalism vs. Leonese nationalism vs. Castilian nationalism vs. Spanish centralism; in Valencian you have anti-Catalan Valencian regionalism, Valencian/Pan-Catalan nationalism, pure Valencian nationalism, Spanish centralism. It's hard t

In the UK the only region whose identity as a "constituent country" is uncertain is Cornwall. Basically you could say that in Spain you have like a dozen Cornwalls. :lol:

What do you mean by well-delimited though? Because all of the territories you mentioned have or full under another one's irredentist claims (Catalonia - Occitan/Gascon Val D'Aran; Valencia - Castilian Utiel and Aragonese/Churro comarcas; Aragon - the Catalan Strip; and Catalonia, Valencia and Balearics are all claimed as part of the Catalan Countries). Even Portugal claims Olivenza and gets its own Miranda Do Duoro claimed by Leonese and Asturians.

Luke wrote:Didn't they take them by force? In their colonial times?

I know Spain made a prior claim to it, but not Argentina itself.

Yeah, because English is the native language of the island :lol:

It actually is, surprisingly. AFAIK, there's no recorded settlement before the British arrived.

That raises an interesting point. Today, all languages have come from somewhere else. How long does it have to be for one to be called the native language of a territory? Is such label even meaningful?

That's also a good question. I suppose it just depends on what you're comparing it to or what your ideological background is.

Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2013-01-16, 0:56
by Lur
Saim wrote:Are you including La Rioja and northern Aragon then? It's strange that there don't seem to be any nationalists that claim those areas, when they're already claiming southern Navarre. From a superficial look at the history I don't think historically Aragonese-speaking southern Navarre would be any more Basque than La Rioja or parts of Aragon.

When I say Basque should be extended to southern Navarre, La Rioja, Eastern Burgos, north of Soria, Zaragoza, Huesca, and a part of Catalonia is when Basque nationalists look at me really weird. They tell me that Basque is "theirs" not "ours". But that's the more radical ones, the ones going all "we're different" and these kind of ideas. The normal, regionalistic people tell me that would be awesome but that I'm a bit too idealistic. In all fairness, the recuperation of Basque might have been labeled a bit too idealistic a while ago. The logical thing that happens when you recuperate a language is that it gets spoken again where it wasn't spoken anymore.

Another typical dialogue: "But I'm not going to go speak Basque/Aragonese now." "Do anything you want, it wouldn't be about you, it would be about others." Because people go mad saying "oh noes, now you want to impose x language on these people." Impose? What?

Also it's good to remember that Aragonese differenciated itself in Navarre, indeed. :lol:

That's definitely true. You have the Catalans, Basques, Galicians and "the rest of Spain". Then there's a million different minor nationalisms in every other autonomous community - in Castile and Leon you have Leonese regionalism vs. Leonese nationalism vs. Castilian nationalism vs. Spanish centralism; in Valencian you have anti-Catalan Valencian regionalism, Valencian/Pan-Catalan nationalism, pure Valencian nationalism, Spanish centralism. It's hard t

In the UK the only region whose identity as a "constituent country" is uncertain is Cornwall. Basically you could say that in Spain you have like a dozen Cornwalls. :lol:

Yes. I'm mostly annoyed by the "rest of Spain" idea.

What do you mean by well-delimited though? Because all of the territories you mentioned have or full under another one's irredentist claims (Catalonia - Occitan/Gascon Val D'Aran; Valencia - Castilian Utiel and Aragonese/Churro comarcas; Aragon - the Catalan Strip; and Catalonia, Valencia and Balearics are all claimed as part of the Catalan Countries). Even Portugal claims Olivenza and gets its own Miranda Do Duoro claimed by Leonese and Asturians.

Aragonese nationalism doesn't really care about areas outside the current Aragon, as far as I know.

I think because Portugal has been an independent State, people accept it more or less.

A Portuguese I once met was disappointed to discover that on this side of the stupid border nobody knows what Olivenza is and nobody gives a damn about it :lol:

Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2015-05-19, 13:00
by linguoboy
DiannaAlexander wrote:American citizens, both born and naturalized, along with legal resident aliens must be shown the respect that they deserve by requiring each and every person who desires to reside in our nation do so through the legal immigration process.

You mean the legal immigration process that everyone agrees is badly broken but our dysfunctionally polarised Congress has continually failed to revise in any meaningful way? That legal immigration process?

Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2015-05-19, 13:42
by loqu
Hadn't seen this thread.

Lur wrote:Yes. I'm mostly annoyed by the "rest of Spain" idea.

So am I. I find that all this bunch of nationalists (mostly Catalans and Basques, but also some Galicians and Valencians) who lump us all together into the "rest of Spain" pot, suffer from a severe case of self-centredness.

Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2015-05-19, 16:48
by Marah
Saim wrote:
Yeah, because English is the native language of the island :lol:

It actually is, surprisingly. AFAIK, there's no recorded settlement before the British arrived.



The French actually colonized the Falkland islands first. The colons were then assimilated in the English colony (that's why some people still have anglicized French names there).

Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2015-05-19, 17:55
by Saim
loqu wrote:Hadn't seen this thread.

Lur wrote:Yes. I'm mostly annoyed by the "rest of Spain" idea.

So am I. I find that all this bunch of nationalists (mostly Catalans and Basques, but also some Galicians and Valencians) who lump us all together into the "rest of Spain" pot, suffer from a severe case of self-centredness.


To a certain extent it's understandable as a reaction to the cafè per a tothom. It gets to the point where Spanish nationalists compare Catalonia to things like la Rioja and Extremadura (which really are parts of Castile, not that that's at all a bad thing!). That leads them to ignore the finer points about Andalusian autonomism dating back to before the Civil War (because Spanish parties are dominant there, and it was a major source of Spanish-speaking immigration at least in Catalonia) and Asturias and Aragon having non-Spanish autochtonous languages because these languages are even more marginalized than Catalan, Galician or Basque are.

Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Posted: 2015-05-20, 11:42
by Lur
Sometimes I wonder what the hell Castile is. Are we going by kingdoms? In which dates? Or languages? In which dates?