Illegal immigration problems and solutions

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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby md0 » 2013-01-10, 8:57

Controlling "illegal" immigration is like copyright enforcement, in that the only efficient course of action is not to prevent it. Building fences, be it between eg Texas and Mexico, or around The Pirate Bay won't do a damn thing. I believe that immigrants should get a citizenship asap, be protected by exploiters that take advantage of "illegals" being undocumented to over-work them and under-pay them, and have the same responsibilities and entitlements like everyone else. The only reason immigrant workers affects the economy negatively, is because we consider them illegal and thus their labour is unregulated.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Lur » 2013-01-10, 15:32

My attitude to inmigration is "let them come, and help fix whatever is making them have to come." Which doesn't seem to be shared by many, I think.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Tenebrarum » 2013-01-11, 4:05

Try fixing corrupt and oppressive regimes. Never works. And when they go down, it mostly ends in a bloodbath.

The most facepalm-worthy people are the ones calling for "changing the system from the inside".
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby TeneReef » 2013-01-12, 13:12

What's the difference between illegal immigration and legal immigration anyway?
Many people in West European countries (for example the Dutch) as as hostile
towards legal immigrants from Poland as (many) Americans are to illegal immigrants from Mexico.:ohwell:
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Garethw87 » 2013-01-12, 14:07

meidei wrote:Controlling "illegal" immigration is like copyright enforcement, in that the only efficient course of action is not to prevent it. Building fences, be it between eg Texas and Mexico, or around The Pirate Bay won't do a damn thing. I believe that immigrants should get a citizenship asap, be protected by exploiters that take advantage of "illegals" being undocumented to over-work them and under-pay them, and have the same responsibilities and entitlements like everyone else. The only reason immigrant workers affects the economy negatively, is because we consider them illegal and thus their labour is unregulated.


Not many people getaway with getting into or out of North Korea? So they obviously have the best policy of controlling ilegal movement of people?

Besides that - f*ck Australia and f*ck Argentina!
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby BlackZ » 2013-01-12, 16:36

Garethw87 wrote:Not many people getaway with getting into or out of North Korea? So they obviously have the best policy of controlling ilegal movement of people?

Besides that - f*ck Australia and f*ck Argentina!

I think I'm missing something...

Argentina? What? :?
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Garethw87 » 2013-01-12, 17:30

BlackZ wrote:
Garethw87 wrote:Not many people getaway with getting into or out of North Korea? So they obviously have the best policy of controlling ilegal movement of people?

Besides that - f*ck Australia and f*ck Argentina!

I think I'm missing something...

Argentina? What? :?


You know. Cristina Kirchner moaning that the UK is a colonial monster because we rule the Falkland Island. So they burn our flag in the streets and what not. They clearly forgot, they tried once, and Iron Maggy kicked their arse! So I hope they try again. Hopefully Kirchner turns up too and gets hit by a grenade. People like her are idiots. If Argentina take back the Island, and enforce Spanish language, Argentine law and currency.. surely THAT is colonialism??!? The people there want to stay British so let them. If they said tomorrow they want to leave, we'd let them.

Just annoys me. And since this is a form of political thread thought i'd share my view
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Lur » 2013-01-12, 18:13

You rule the Malvinas?

You dont! You're just some guy on the Internet.

Garethw87 wrote: If they said tomorrow they want to leave, we'd let them.

I doubt that. I also doubt they'd let you have much to say on the matter.

Garethw87 wrote:Cristina Kirchner moaning that the UK is a colonial monster because we rule the Falkland Island.

Didn't they take them by force? In their colonial times?

If Argentina take back the Island, and enforce Spanish language, Argentine law and currency.. surely THAT is colonialism??!?

Yeah, because English is the native language of the island :lol: It really doesn't matter if the language among the population ends up being one of another.

That raises an interesting point. Today, all languages have come from somewhere else. How long does it have to be for one to be called the native language of a territory? Is such label even meaningful?
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Tenebrarum » 2013-01-12, 19:16

Luke wrote:You rule the Malvinas?

You dont! You're just some guy on the Internet.

He has a point though. The tiny population of Falkland Islands don't want Argentina, and let's not forget that most of them are of British descent. Argentina really has no business there. I'm surprised the country still bothers to muck it up after all that time, instead of condemning the war as a stupid decision of the former dictatorship. Can't be that obtuse, yes?
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby BlackZ » 2013-01-12, 19:47

And since this is a form of political thread thought i'd share my view

Sure, feel free. I thought it had something to do with illegal immigration, which was the reason for my question.

Regarding to the Falklands issue, I doubt the discussion will go anywhere... But my opinion is: the majority of the population who live in the islands want to stay under British government. Thus, they should have the right to do so. Also, Argentina has already offered citizenship for the Falklanders who are interested in becoming Argentinan. But they don't want. In such a case, why to force?

Now, from what I know about Cristina Kirchner, I doubt she will begin a new Falklands War. She (just like her friends, Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro) talks too much in order to shift the attention from the problems her country is suffering right now. And such a polemic thing is a sure way to make her popularity increase. Not to mention that those Islands are rich in oil.

That said, I'm curious to know for how long she'll stay in the power. I mean, despite that, her popularity has been falling drastically lately...
Luke wrote:Didn't they take them by force? In their colonial times?

Just like what was made with the natives from the entire American continent. I doubt Argentina would return their Misiones province to the Guaranís, for instance.
Luke wrote:Today, all languages have come from somewhere else. How long does it have to be for one to be called the native language of a territory? Is such label even meaningful?

I think that it should be the language that people who live in said territory are native in.
Tenebrarum wrote:I'm surprised the country still bothers to muck it up after all that time, instead of condemning the war as a stupid decision of the former dictatorship. Can't be that obtuse, yes?

Well, Falklands/Malvinas is a very touchy topic in Argentina regardless of the dictatorship. And it's frequently used for populist reasons.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Garethw87 » 2013-01-12, 21:45

Luke wrote:You rule the Malvinas?

You dont! You're just some guy on the Internet.

Garethw87 wrote: If they said tomorrow they want to leave, we'd let them.

I doubt that. I also doubt they'd let you have much to say on the matter.

Garethw87 wrote:Cristina Kirchner moaning that the UK is a colonial monster because we rule the Falkland Island.

Didn't they take them by force? In their colonial times?

If Argentina take back the Island, and enforce Spanish language, Argentine law and currency.. surely THAT is colonialism??!?

Yeah, because English is the native language of the island :lol: It really doesn't matter if the language among the population ends up being one of another.

That raises an interesting point. Today, all languages have come from somewhere else. How long does it have to be for one to be called the native language of a territory? Is such label even meaningful?


You'll see that I clearly put WE, as in 'WE' the United Kingdom own the Falklands. I never said I own them?! I don't see why you choose to put that...

Secondly, about 'it doesn't matter if they speak English or Spanish' Well It does really? You say on your profile you speak Andalusian Spanish? If so, why bother? And why bother learning any other language for that matter? That doesn't make sense. They are British Citizens and the last time I checked, we all speak English. So an invading force of Argentine's turning up saying 'speak Spanish now' is very contradictory to what her actual argument is.

As said, it's because oil has been found. Same as always!

Anyway I drifted a little off topic. Also it proves how easy people are on forums to start 'attacking' somebody else. It's supposed to be a debate/discussion. Yeah we'll disagree but that's the fun in it! It isn't personal now is it...
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby BlackZ » 2013-01-12, 22:13

Garethw87 wrote:Also it proves how easy people are on forums to start 'attacking' somebody else.

Words such as your quote below surely don't help:
Garethw87 wrote:They clearly forgot, they tried once, and Iron Maggy kicked their arse! So I hope they try again. Hopefully Kirchner turns up too and gets hit by a grenade. People like her are idiots.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Lur » 2013-01-12, 22:17

Garethw87 wrote:You'll see that I clearly put WE, as in 'WE' the United Kingdom own the Falklands. I never said I own them?! I don't see why you choose to put that...

Because of your way of talking about that war.

You see, in our socioeconomic organization, I find it hilarious how many that aren't on top of the pyramid of power are made to express themselves and ultimately to believe that some things like a piece of land, are theirs, and ultimately to identify themselves with a bunch of rich people instead of the people from the outside that are in their same situation.

Garethw87 wrote:Secondly, about 'it doesn't matter if they speak English or Spanish' Well It does really? You say on your profile you speak Andalusian Spanish? If so, why bother? And why bother learning any other language for that matter? That doesn't make sense. They are British Citizens and the last time I checked, we all speak English. So an invading force of Argentine's turning up saying 'speak Spanish now' is very contradictory to what her actual argument is.

Because neither Spanish or English are in need of any particular protection. If there was a language spoken there before Spanish, French, Dutch and English speakers arrived there, we could look at that, but there wasn't anymore at that point.

An invading force of Argentina would have no point in telling people to speak Spanish. People will speak whatever they want to speak. There might be natural social drifts in one direction or the other, changing the language spoken there. But who cares. English or Spanish aren't going extinct because they stopped being spoken at the Malvinas.

Even if there was a language shift, the current habitants would still speak English. Then you might have a pair of bilingual generations and then they would speak Spanish. Or they might even want to preserve a bilingualism.

As said, it's because oil has been found. Same as always!

Which is why the UK government and ruling classes would not let the people there be independent even if they wanted.
Last edited by Lur on 2013-01-12, 22:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Garethw87 » 2013-01-12, 22:19

BlackZ wrote:
Garethw87 wrote:Also it proves how easy people are on forums to start 'attacking' somebody else.

Words such as your quote below surely don't help:
Garethw87 wrote:They clearly forgot, they tried once, and Iron Maggy kicked their arse! So I hope they try again. Hopefully Kirchner turns up too and gets hit by a grenade. People like her are idiots.


She's a politician, and an idiotic one at that. Attacking them is fine! They don't live in our world.

I'm not going to say, or think that about a member on here for instance, just because we disagree. If we disagree it shows we care about what we are debating, and again.. that's a good thing
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Garethw87 » 2013-01-12, 22:28

But back on topic maybe??

Why is it that the world seems to despise immigration? As somebody said 'the British in Australia are white so nobody cares'. That seems to be the cause unfortunately. If you are white and go to a white country nobody really minds (unless you become some crazed criminal obviously). Yet you see stories of towns in Switzerland refusing to give Africans citizenship and what not...

Russia too. They don't seem to want anybody to go and live there.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby JackFrost » 2013-01-12, 22:44

It's not about despising immigration, but despising those who didn't apply properly and sneaked across the border. At least for the American case. People tend to be loathe to give them amnesty and a path to citizenship, which makes it unfortunately unfair for those who may have spent years getting the Holy Grail of all cards (pictured below).

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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby linguoboy » 2013-01-12, 23:11

JackFrost wrote:It's not about despising immigration, but despising those who didn't apply properly and sneaked across the border.

But this begs the question of whether American immigration law is remotely fair and just to begin with. I don't think I know anyone who would honestly say that.

Why do people think that someone with the wherewithal and gumption to sneak across the border and work shitty jobs in an exploitative shadow economy just for the chance that their child might have a better life than that would make a worse citizen than someone who by pure happenstance is related to someone who was born here?
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby TeneReef » 2013-01-13, 2:10

Just like English will remain the official language in Scotland when Scotland gets its independence and UK changes their name into: United Kingdom of Wales and England.

And Northern Ireland unifies with the mother country: Ireland.

Northern Ireland is more Irish than Falklands are British.


The English bullied all countries around them (Wales, Ireland, Scotland).
It's high time England got independent. :lol:
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Garethw87 » 2013-01-13, 12:52

TeneReef wrote:.

The English bullied all countries around them (Wales, Ireland, Scotland).
It's high time England got independent. :lol:


There is support for a independent England. And if Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland all become independent over night I don't think you'll find too many people that would be bothered. Obviously the Government would, as they'd lose out on taxes but, in everyday life there is a big 'divide' if you will with regards to where we are from. Most people are 'English, Welsh, Scottish' first before we are 'British' Only Americans seem to like the term 'British' Welsh people especially seem to hate us all :D Scotts aren't so bad as they know that independence looms for them.

Then you have the problem of Northern and Southern England. There was support at one time for an Independent Northern England, and probably still is. If Scotland goes on it's own this will probably be a good thing for Northern England. London is the capital yes but it isn't everything! It all comes down to the Danelaw if you read up about it.

Back to topic.. If Wales/Scotland became independent it would be interesting to see if they set up any border restrictions for us English, and whether they'd class us as immigrants :hmm:
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby BlackZ » 2013-01-13, 13:27

Garethw87 wrote:If Wales/Scotland became independent it would be interesting to see if they set up any border restrictions for us English, and whether they'd class us as immigrants :hmm:

I think it depends on how traumatic their independence will be. The same apply for a possible independence of Catalunya, Euskara, Galicia and other regions of Spain, with one difference. From my point of view as a foreigner, today Spain seems more repressive than UK regarding to independence.
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