Illegal immigration problems and solutions

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Utopist
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Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Utopist » 2012-03-25, 6:32

Good day!

What solutions would you suggest to solve the problem of illegal immigration as well as problems evoked by it (human trafficking, sexual slavery), if you had power to do it?
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Tenebrarum
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Tenebrarum » 2012-03-25, 7:37

Not a damn useful thing. It will keep happening regardless. Blessed be the souls of those who perish along the way.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-03-25, 8:01

Abolish the borders and allow people to move everywhere they want.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Bryon » 2012-03-25, 16:22

Make citizenship easier to get.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Oleksij » 2012-03-25, 16:29

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Abolish the borders and allow people to move everywhere they want.

This. There is no illegal migration.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Tenebrarum » 2012-03-25, 16:45

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Abolish the borders and allow people to move everywhere they want.

Nah, that would be the end of tyranny and totalitarianism too, so we can't have that.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby abcdefg » 2012-03-25, 16:57

Tenebrarum wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Abolish the borders and allow people to move everywhere they want.

Nah, that would be the end of tyranny and totalitarianism too, so we can't have that.

How can that be the end of tyranny, if all the countries merge into one, who/what will be the leader of it?
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Tenebrarum » 2012-03-25, 17:37

What makes you think "country" as a concept would still stand by then? Actually it's a relatively recent concept, dating back to just 4000 years ago or so. Nationalism in its current form is even newer, having emerged in 17th century Europe. To put it into context, our species has been around for approximately 250,000 years.

The concept of country might someday disappear, like it never existed.

It would be the end of tyranny, because you can't exactly play strongman/dictator/Big Brother for long when all of your subjects can just pack up and leave for a better, freer place.

Vietnam still exists because its 80 million people can't all get away from it. If the people get a chance, the vast majority of them would behave just like those two daring wrestlers. Bye bye "socialist" paradise.
Last edited by Tenebrarum on 2012-03-25, 17:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Bao » 2012-03-25, 17:43

With simple deregulation, it won't be vulnerable people who sometimes happen to be illegal immigrants anymore who are exploited like that, but simply vulnerable people.

Of course I know that it's impossible to solve all problems at once, but I believe that anything that makes it more difficult for people to exploit others, and anything that makes vulnerable people less vulnerable, is a positive step.

Education can help, as long as it does not teach how correct an existing social order is, but instead encourages everyone to think, decide and carry responsibility for themselves.
But what's much more important is the social stigma connected with being a 'victim'. Victimized individuals usually are systematically removed from anyone who might support them, so they learn to protect themselves with the most rudimentary methods. That generally includes the loss of trust for other people, and it also often includes a curious mental construct that accepts blame for what happens to oneself, in exchange for the belief that one's actions can somehow change the situation.
This behavioural pattern is actually helpful in a situation of acute danger from the hands of another human being, because in such a situation showing one's vulnerability even to other people is risky, and it is possible to influence the behaviour of the perpetrator to a certain degree. But both actions only help to survive the acute situation, they do not help to prevent such situations in the future.

However, this behaviour makes it easy for the environment to blame the victims or ignore that they need help: Victims are likely to accept blame, as it seems to be similar to the thought pattern they used to survive. In situations associated with taboos or social stigma, it is often easier and seems more desirable to ignore victims' needs, especially when a taboo is strong enough to keep the victims from speaking up even after they have sorted out the blame issue.
So, the most important aspect would be to destroy the power taboos have over people's minds. That is the only way I can see that will keep people from abusing the power taboos have over other people's minds.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby abcdefg » 2012-03-25, 17:57

Tenebrarum wrote:What makes you think "country" as a concept would still stand by then? Actually it's a relatively recent concept, dating back to just 4000 years ago or so. Nationalism in its current form is even newer, having emerged in 17th century Europe. To put it into context, our species has been around for approximately 250,000 years.

The concept of country might someday disappear, like it never existed.

It would be the end of tyranny, because you can't exactly play strongman/dictator/Big Brother for long when all of your subjects can just pack up and leave.

The idea of stateless societies actually sounds similar to the "spiraling evolution" and it is the goal of communism in marxism. "When society has developed enough, it would be back to the stateless condition as in the prehistoric days." - like what we learned in school. It sounds impossible to me because of economic scarcity, and simply there are currently too many people in the world. People tend to group up with those who are most like them, so there would certainly be conflicts between different groups of people. So if that "stateless society" exists, it wouldn't exist for long.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Tenebrarum » 2012-03-25, 18:14

I don't know if the writers of our Party-approved textbooks pulled that "stateless society" out from their ass or anything, but classic Marxism only explicitly calls for a classless society. (How well that has worked out is another issue.)

And I honestly don't think humanity will be forever confined to this planet. If our descendants manage to dodge the mass extinctions that come their way, I think eventually they will spread out into space.

But that's heavy speculative fiction. If you want a more realistic vision, scientists are talking about a slow-but-sure-and-lengthy decline in global population in the long term.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby abcdefg » 2012-03-25, 18:20

Clearly. The future of stateless society is as bright as that of human spreading to the universe. :P

Yeah, I think the decline in population makes more sense.. Eventually it has to be this decline.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby hlysnan » 2012-03-25, 21:17

Utopist wrote:Good day!

What solutions would you suggest to solve the problem of illegal immigration as well as problems evoked by it (human trafficking, sexual slavery), if you had power to do it?

Do what Australia (and Israel) do. Heavily protected borders. Easier if you have a moat or a giant wall, or maybe both! Also, make harbouring visa overstayers a criminal offence.

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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby linguoboy » 2012-03-25, 22:48

hlysnan wrote:Do what Australia (and Israel) do. Heavily protected borders. Easier if you have a moat or a giant wall, or maybe both! Also, make harbouring visa overstayers a criminal offence.

So there are no more illegal immigrants in Australia any more? That's interesting to know.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Bao » 2012-03-25, 23:00

(Didn't that sound sarcastic?)
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby linguoboy » 2012-03-25, 23:11

Sarcastic? Me?
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Bao » 2012-03-25, 23:57

Nope, Jamie.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby Oleksij » 2012-03-26, 0:05

hlysnan wrote:
Utopist wrote:Good day!

What solutions would you suggest to solve the problem of illegal immigration as well as problems evoked by it (human trafficking, sexual slavery), if you had power to do it?

Do what Australia does. Be a huge-fucking-ass desert island in the middle of nowhere. (and Israel) do. Heavily protected borders. Easier if you have a moat or a giant wall, or maybe both! Also, make harbouring visa overstayers a criminal offence.

There, I fixed it for you.

There is no long-term solution to immigration issues, only short-term, and they are usually provocative. The only eternal solution from each and every human problem is individual responsibility, and it is a gift granted to a chosen few by Her Majesty Fortune.
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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby hlysnan » 2012-03-26, 0:32

linguoboy wrote:So there are no more illegal immigrants in Australia any more? That's interesting to know.

The biggest problem with illegal immigrants in Australia are the visa overstayers. They're simply not doing enough to kick them out.

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Re: Illegal immigration problems and solutions

Postby JackFrost » 2012-03-26, 1:10

They're simply not doing enough to kick them out.

Your country has bigger things to worry about. Visa overstayers are a minor problem that cannot be completely eliminated.

Also, there are other laws, international treaties, and constitutional requirements that complicate the deportation proceeding. If the visa overstayer's home country wants him dead and has enough evidence for that, then the moral obligation of letting him settle is more important than deporting him just for overstaying the visa.
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