Scottish Independence

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Ciarán12
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-03-22, 22:27

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
ciaran1212 wrote:I was referring to Scotland (that is if the Scots even decide to embrace the language after seceding. Seems like a waste of independence if they don't)

It would seem a very odd event indeed, if five million English-speaking Scots suddenly shifted to Gaelic. But interesting. :D


You mean like 4.5 million Irish people are trying to do with Irish? Just watch us.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby hlysnan » 2012-03-22, 23:10

Tenebrarum wrote:And my point is: If dividing Scotland along some ethno-linguistic-god-knows-what line does not stem from deranged, irrational resentment and fear, then what could be? North Ireland I can understand, but freaking Scotland?

Self-preservation with regards to a culture? Scotland is becoming more and more Anglicised. There is no question that the number of Scottish Gaelic speakers is falling, not only as a proportion of the total population, which is an indicator of the influence of the language, but also in nominal figures, an indicator of vulnerability of the language. The question is, how can this be reversed? Well, one way is to improve the prestige of the language by granting official status, but is that enough? If people in the Lowlands have no attachment to Scottish Gaelic or the Highlands, that's going to present a problem for the cultural revival.

kalemiye wrote:I'm all for far removed Papuan languages, I am sure there are people on this forum for whom this is a real issue. You are really an insensitive dude. Not to mention that the comment was kinda racist, are far removed Papuan languages somehow less important than Scottish Gaelic?

To most Westerners, Papuan languages are less important and unheard of compared to Scottish Gaelic. It shouldn't be a surprise to hear.

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Set
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Set » 2012-03-23, 0:55

hlysnan wrote:Self-preservation with regards to a culture? Scotland is becoming more and more Anglicised. There is no question that the number of Scottish Gaelic speakers is falling, not only as a proportion of the total population, which is an indicator of the influence of the language, but also in nominal figures, an indicator of vulnerability of the language. The question is, how can this be reversed? Well, one way is to improve the prestige of the language by granting official status, but is that enough? If people in the Lowlands have no attachment to Scottish Gaelic or the Highlands, that's going to present a problem for the cultural revival.

But you're not talking about self-preservation, you're talking about expansion. It seems to me you think that the right of a language (a non-tangible, almost abstract idea) has more rights than humans, i.e. Scottish people should have to learn Gaelic to protect the language. But nobody has the right to tell anyone what language they have to speak, especially not if it's in order to boost support for some small political party based on out-dated ideas of nationalism and the nation state.

If people want to learn Gaelic, then by all means efforts should be made to make this possible...and this is the case currently, I don't know to what extent, but this isn't the main issue. Gaelic isn't being oppressed by Scotland being in the UK, so this really is a non-issue when it comes to the independence debate. And only 1.6% of the population speak Gaelic to some degree, so to push the linguistic argument shows a lack of care for the human side of the issue.

As for ciaran, you seem to think people should learn and be proud of the language which generations ago people spoke in the bit of land they were randomly born on. Why? On the one hand you say that you support the Scottish right to determination, but on the other hand you ignore the fact that most people don't actually want independence, and even less want to speak Gaelic. You also seem to think that the fact that you're celtic means you have more authority on this issue than I do, someone who actually lives in Scotland (and I'm half Irish anyway...although that means nothing). I think you're just a bigot thought and get too agitated by things you havn't properly read for a reasonable conversation, so that might be why I don't reply to you.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby hlysnan » 2012-03-23, 1:45

Set wrote:But you're not talking about self-preservation, you're talking about expansion. It seems to me you think that the right of a language (a non-tangible, almost abstract idea) has more rights than humans, i.e. Scottish people should have to learn Gaelic to protect the language. But nobody has the right to tell anyone what language they have to speak, especially not if it's in order to boost support for some small political party based on out-dated ideas of nationalism and the nation state.

Well what about the fact that Scottish people should have to learn English? Isn't that the state telling people what language they have to speak?

Set wrote:If people want to learn Gaelic, then by all means efforts should be made to make this possible...and this is the case currently, I don't know to what extent, but this isn't the main issue. Gaelic isn't being oppressed by Scotland being in the UK, so this really is a non-issue when it comes to the independence debate. And only 1.6% of the population speak Gaelic to some degree, so to push the linguistic argument shows a lack of care for the human side of the issue.

Gaelic has lower prestige by Scotland existing in the UK, and this is a threat to its ongoing existence.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby kalemiye » 2012-03-23, 10:06

ciaran1212 wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
ciaran1212 wrote:I was referring to Scotland (that is if the Scots even decide to embrace the language after seceding. Seems like a waste of independence if they don't)

It would seem a very odd event indeed, if five million English-speaking Scots suddenly shifted to Gaelic. But interesting. :D


You mean like 4.5 million Irish people are trying to do with Irish? Just watch us.


According to your own profile you are apparently able to speak Japanese and Spanish better than Irish Gaelic. I think definitely you should try a bit harder.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Set » 2012-03-23, 10:57

hlysnan wrote:Well what about the fact that Scottish people should have to learn English? Isn't that the state telling people what language they have to speak?

True, but the Scottish parliament already has power in deciding its own curriculum, so that's not Westminster saying anything. If London did suddenly try to stop people learning Gaelic by law, then I would of course be in favour of Scottish independence, because there is actually a threat being posed. But that isn't the case and no British government would ever do that, even if it wanted to.

hlysnan wrote:Gaelic has lower prestige by Scotland existing in the UK, and this is a threat to its ongoing existence.

But you can only try to force the prestige of a language by trying to make people learn it and governments shouldn't have the right to do that. And as I said, people want to learn the most useful language, that's a normal human thing to do, to find the most efficient way of succeeding in life. Gaelic provides almost no benefit and trying to impose benefits, by making certain jobs require it would be a dreadful idea.

I had a Scottish friend who used to be pretty extremely patriotic/nationalist, so he played shinty and said he could speak Gaelic and hated the English. Turns out he couldn't speak Gaelic, he had studied it for a couple of years at school and then got a Gaelic tattoo. That kinda sums it up for me. Theres quite a few people who want to feel proud about being Scottish for whatever reason, but the language isn't a great part of it. I think people just want to feel like there's and 'us' and a 'them', then they feel like they're part of a group.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby hlysnan » 2012-03-23, 11:30

Set wrote:True, but the Scottish parliament already has power in deciding its own curriculum, so that's not Westminster saying anything. If London did suddenly try to stop people learning Gaelic by law, then I would of course be in favour of Scottish independence, because there is actually a threat being posed. But that isn't the case and no British government would ever do that, even if it wanted to.

Scottish Parliament is the one enforcing English then. And who are the majority in Scottish Parliament? Lowlanders.

Set wrote:But you can only try to force the prestige of a language by trying to make people learn it and governments shouldn't have the right to do that. And as I said, people want to learn the most useful language, that's a normal human thing to do, to find the most efficient way of succeeding in life. Gaelic provides almost no benefit and trying to impose benefits, by making certain jobs require it would be a dreadful idea.

Governments are forcing people to learn English. It's the same thing. The benefits are only there now because of the suppression of Scottish Gaelic that occurred over the centuries.

Set wrote:I think people just want to feel like there's and 'us' and a 'them', then they feel like they're part of a group.

There is always an "us" and a "them". My family against the rest. My people against the rest. It's human nature, and everyone is a part of a number of groups unless they're living in hermitude. People care about the people closest to them, and the closer a group is against another, they will care more about the first.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Set » 2012-03-23, 11:43

hlysnan wrote:Scottish Parliament is the one enforcing English then. And who are the majority in Scottish Parliament? Lowlanders.

Ok, but these are the same people who would make up a Scottish parliament in an independent Scotland. I'm not saying the Gaelic language is an issue, just not to do with Scottish independence.

hlysnan wrote:Governments are forcing people to learn English. It's the same thing. The benefits are only there now because of the suppression of Scottish Gaelic that occurred over the centuries.

Yes and a lot of bad things have happened in the past. I'm not excusing them, but you can't try and re-wind and bring things back to the way they were, and where would you stop anyway? Would we have to back to Middle English, or Proto-Germanic, or Proto-Indo-European?

hlysnan wrote:There is always an "us" and a "them". My family against the rest. My people against the rest. It's human nature, and everyone is a part of a number of groups unless they're living in hermitude. People care about the people closest to them, and the closer a group is against another, they will care more about the first.

You don't have to think like that though. And saying something is natural for humans is invalid because there are plenty things we now do which aren't natural. And many 'natural' things that we may no longer do since we are part of an advanced society. I think this way of thinking is at the root of most of the world's problems, so how is encouraging it a good thing?
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby hlysnan » 2012-03-23, 12:34

Set wrote:Ok, but these are the same people who would make up a Scottish parliament in an independent Scotland. I'm not saying the Gaelic language is an issue, just not to do with Scottish independence.

I can't remember what the argument is now. I'm getting confused because I was talking about letting the Lowlands join England in this thread.

hlysnan wrote:Yes and a lot of bad things have happened in the past. I'm not excusing them, but you can't try and re-wind and bring things back to the way they were, and where would you stop anyway? Would we have to back to Middle English, or Proto-Germanic, or Proto-Indo-European?

People aren't going to care about reviving Middle English, but people do care about Scots Gaelic.

hlysnan wrote:You don't have to think like that though. And saying something is natural for humans is invalid because there are plenty things we now do which aren't natural. And many 'natural' things that we may no longer do since we are part of an advanced society. I think this way of thinking is at the root of most of the world's problems, so how is encouraging it a good thing?

What I mean is that this is as core to being human as crying is as a response to seeing something saddening. No one needs to encourage it because it's already a part of our instinct. Obviously, a parent is going to save their child before someone elses. And I don't think it's the root of most of the world's problems. People seem to say the same thing about money, greed, religion, etc. - There's always one controversial thing to place the blame. In fact I think a lack of group identity could be disadvantageous to one's mental health.

Anyway, my opinion on the matter is that if the republicans get the majority at the referendum, I would totally be a supporter of the outcome. At this point in time the most likely event would be further devolution, but a couple of years is a long time.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Saim » 2012-03-23, 14:17

hlysnan wrote:
Saim wrote:That's just wrong. Asserting a minority's rights should not turn into xenophobia against the dominant group.

How is this xenophobia? If the Lowland Scots identify with England more than they do with culture of the Gaels, I don't think it's unreasonable for the Lowlands to join England instead of the Highlanders.

Perhaps you should re-read the original post.

Or maybe the Low Lands Scots can move back to England.

It'd be like if someone were to tell you or me to "go back to England". Except that's not even as ridiculous and ahistorical, because the Lowland Scots have pre-Anglo-Saxon ancestry and have been speaking English varieties for even longer than we have.

Telling someone to move because the native culture of your area is too "foreign" for other people's liking is pretty much textbook xenophobia.

Saim wrote:Why does having a different culture mean you absolutely must get your own country? I find this narrative too simplistic. It's the same narrative ("one language, one country!") that's used to justify linguicide and the like in the first place.

All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
[/quote]
Unless they're Albanians. :P

In all seriousness, I obviously accept they have the right to self-determination. They have a right to a referendum on secession, I just don't think secession is necessary.

ciaran1212 wrote:
Set wrote:I don't think there is any significant group of people in England anymore who are against minority languages in these places...so what benefit is there from independence?


International recognition of the Scottish people as a distinct, self-governing people with their own language, culture and heritage and the self-respect the Scots will develop as a result, which would hopefully lead to greater attention to the language and other endangered cultural property.

I don't know if that's true. Just look at Welsh, for example. Being part of the UK might make Scots more enthusiastic about learning their national languages, as there'd be more of a reason to differentiate themselves from the English. Compare the revitalization of Welsh compared to that of Irish (although yes you could say that Irish started off with a worse hand).

hlysnan wrote:
Set wrote:True, but the Scottish parliament already has power in deciding its own curriculum, so that's not Westminster saying anything. If London did suddenly try to stop people learning Gaelic by law, then I would of course be in favour of Scottish independence, because there is actually a threat being posed. But that isn't the case and no British government would ever do that, even if it wanted to.

Scottish Parliament is the one enforcing English then. And who are the majority in Scottish Parliament? Lowlanders.

In all fairness those same Lowlanders seem to care more about Gaelic than their own linguistic heritage (Scots). I mean, how can you square some sort of "Lowlander domination" with the fact that Gaelic has more official recognition and is the only of Scotland's two national languages that is used taught in school (though only a few schools operate through the medium of Gaelic, they at least exist).

hlysnan wrote:I can't remember what the argument is now. I'm getting confused because I was talking about letting the Lowlands join England in this thread.

And they'd never agree to it, if by "joining England" you mean getting rid of their own parliament. Who's doing this "letting", Gaels? It's not about "letting" them join England - if they wanted to they would.

They're still Scottish, after all, despite their region having been settled by Anglo-Saxons a gazillion years ago. Lowlanders share a greater common identity with Highlanders than with their "Germanic" neighbours to the south. I can't believe I even need to point this out.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-03-23, 17:49

Set wrote:
hlysnan wrote:Self-preservation with regards to a culture? Scotland is becoming more and more Anglicised. There is no question that the number of Scottish Gaelic speakers is falling, not only as a proportion of the total population, which is an indicator of the influence of the language, but also in nominal figures, an indicator of vulnerability of the language. The question is, how can this be reversed? Well, one way is to improve the prestige of the language by granting official status, but is that enough? If people in the Lowlands have no attachment to Scottish Gaelic or the Highlands, that's going to present a problem for the cultural revival.

But you're not talking about self-preservation, you're talking about expansion.

Gaelic was once spoken all over Scotland. It's no expansion, it's reclamation.
Set wrote:It seems to me you think that the right of a language (a non-tangible, almost abstract idea) has more rights than humans, i.e. Scottish people should have to learn Gaelic to protect the language.

Well, the language has existed for hundreds of years, and is the embodiment of an entire culture and the mental operating system of a whole civilization. So yeah, I think it's a bit more important that a person.
Set wrote:But nobody has the right to tell anyone what language they have to speak, especially not if it's in order to boost support for some small political party based on out-dated ideas of nationalism and the nation state.

I don't know what kind of world your living in, but in mine there's nothing outdated about nationalism. People in the past were told what language to speak, that's how this situation has come about, all I'm saying is reverse it the same way.
Set wrote: Gaelic isn't being oppressed by Scotland being in the UK, so this really is a non-issue when it comes to the independence debate.
More's the pity. Unfortunately, I agree that it seems that the language has little to do with the independence debate. I think a lot of the people who want independence want it for reasons other than saving the Gaelic language and culture, which leads me to believe that it may not be much more of a priority in a new Scottish state than it is now. But at least the advocates of said language/culture will have a louder voice in a Scottish state than they do currently.
Set wrote: And only 1.6% of the population speak Gaelic to some degree, so to push the linguistic argument shows a lack of care for the human side of the issue.

To make that argument shows a lack of concern for the language side of the issue. You seem to have a very utilitarian perspective on language. It's not something that's there just as a method of communication to serve your purposes. If anything, you should be there to serve it. Like I said already, it's been around a lot longer than you have, and to be honest, the world will miss it a lot more than you.
Set wrote:As for ciaran, you seem to think people should learn and be proud of the language which generations ago people spoke in the bit of land they were randomly born on. Why?

If the Scottish people don't assume responsibility for it, who will?
Set wrote: On the one hand you say that you support the Scottish right to determination, but on the other hand you ignore the fact that most people don't actually want independence, and even less want to speak Gaelic.

I'm not forcing anyone to have independence. I do however reserve the right to think that if the Scots are willing to allow themselves to be come completely anglicized, and allow their culture to die, that that is a despicable thing to do. It is a great shame if their not proud of their culture and language.
Set wrote:You also seem to think that the fact that you're celtic means you have more authority on this issue than I do, someone who actually lives in Scotland

Yes, I do. Clearly, I have more of an attachment to the Gaelic culture than you do, and I don't want to see it die.
Set wrote:(and I'm half Irish anyway...although that means nothing).

You're right, that does mean absolutely nothing.
Set wrote: I think you're just a bigot thought and get too agitated by things you havn't properly read for a reasonable conversation, so that might be why I don't reply to you.

Haven't read properly? I have yet to hear you dazzle me with a history lesson that proves me wrong.

kalemiye wrote:According to your own profile you are apparently able to speak Japanese and Spanish better than Irish Gaelic. I think definitely you should try a bit harder.

You have no idea what the circumstances of my life are, so keep your criticism of me personally to yourself thanks. I didn't have the luxury of growing up with Irish, I didn't study it at school, and I have taken it up within the last few years. I also have to manage many other commitments. But I will be fluent, and more over my children (should I have any) will grow up as native speakers.


Set wrote:And as I said, people want to learn the most useful language, that's a normal human thing to do, to find the most efficient way of succeeding in life. Gaelic provides almost no benefit and trying to impose benefits, by making certain jobs require it would be a dreadful idea.

Again, showing your utilitarian view of language. The language needs to be saved. If the best way to do that is to give people an incentive by making the language one of official business, then so be it. That's how English became dominant, so we know it works.
Set wrote:I had a Scottish friend who used to be pretty extremely patriotic/nationalist, so he played shinty and said he could speak Gaelic and hated the English. Turns out he couldn't speak Gaelic, he had studied it for a couple of years at school and then got a Gaelic tattoo. That kinda sums it up for me. Theres quite a few people who want to feel proud about being Scottish for whatever reason, but the language isn't a great part of it.

I see, so because your friend was like that, that now means that the language is pointless and you'd be happy to see it die? Because of one nationalist who couldn't be bothered to learn the language? If anything I think it's sad that he didn't speak it. You said he was taught it in school, yet didn't speak it: people shouldn't have to learn their native language as a second language in school.
[/quote]
Set wrote:
hlysnan wrote:Governments are forcing people to learn English. It's the same thing. The benefits are only there now because of the suppression of Scottish Gaelic that occurred over the centuries.

Yes and a lot of bad things have happened in the past. I'm not excusing them, but you can't try and re-wind and bring things back to the way they were, and where would you stop anyway? Would we have to back to Middle English, or Proto-Germanic, or Proto-Indo-European?

If I could re-wind time and save the myriad number of language that have been lost, I would. Each one is a different perspective on the world and something that enriches us all. Many have been lost permanently. Gaelic is not one of those. Your argument is like saying, "Why should we help that dying guy? You can bring back the dead, so why bother?
Set wrote:
hlysnan wrote:There is always an "us" and a "them". My family against the rest. My people against the rest. It's human nature, and everyone is a part of a number of groups unless they're living in hermitude. People care about the people closest to them, and the closer a group is against another, they will care more about the first.

You don't have to think like that though. And saying something is natural for humans is invalid because there are plenty things we now do which aren't natural. And many 'natural' things that we may no longer do since we are part of an advanced society.
Sorry, weren't you just talking about how it is "natural" that people would want to learn the most useful language at the expense of others?

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Set » 2012-03-23, 19:01

Fight fire with fire I guess:
ciaran1212 wrote:Gaelic was once spoken all over Scotland. It's no expansion, it's reclamation.

Stop making up conlangs and speak Basque then.
ciaran1212 wrote:Well, the language has existed for hundreds of years, and is the embodiment of an entire culture and the mental operating system of a whole civilization. So yeah, I think it's a bit more important that a person.

Great, let's all make way for the great celtic Volk!
ciaran1212 wrote:I don't know what kind of world your living in, but in mine there's nothing outdated about nationalism. People in the past were told what language to speak, that's how this situation has come about, all I'm saying is reverse it the same way.

Nice of you to pick the precise moment in the past to revert to which specifically suits you. Also according to this idea billions of people are going to have to change language, although I realise you're probably not a supporter of equal rights for everyone, just the ones which suit you.
ciaran1212 wrote:More's the pity. Unfortunately, I agree that it seems that the language has little to do with the independence debate. I think a lot of the people who want independence want it for reasons other than saving the Gaelic language and culture, which leads me to believe that it may not be much more of a priority in a new Scottish state than it is now. But at least the advocates of said language/culture will have a louder voice in a Scottish state than they do currently.

Damn people and their own opinions!!! Why can't they all think and want just like MEEEE!!!! :evil:
ciaran1212 wrote:To make that argument shows a lack of concern for the language side of the issue. You seem to have a very utilitarian perspective on language. It's not something that's there just as a method of communication to serve your purposes. If anything, you should be there to serve it. Like I said already, it's been around a lot longer than you have, and to be honest, the world will miss it a lot more than you.

Haha, this is just too messed up, I can't even mock it. You're basically saying that ideas may not progress and we must all be subservient to the oldest idea just because it is abstract and known...BS
ciaran1212 wrote:I'm not forcing anyone to have independence. I do however reserve the right to think that if the Scots are willing to allow themselves to be come completely anglicized, and allow their culture to die, that that is a despicable thing to do. It is a great shame if their not proud of their culture and language.

You just sound like a kid who's pissed off 'cos the other kids don't wanna play the game he wants to play. Enjoying your culture doesn't mean forcing everyone to speak a certain way or do certain things. Culture develops and isn't defined by one person. Again, I don't think you have any experience of Scotland though and again you are a English-hating bigot.
ciaran1212 wrote:Yes, I do. Clearly, I have more of an attachment to the Gaelic culture than you do, and I don't want to see it die.

ciaran1212 wrote: that does mean absolutely nothing.

Also: good, you found something you like, why do other people have to like it too?
ciaran1212 wrote:Haven't read properly? I have yet to hear you dazzle me with a history lesson that proves me wrong.

Why, do you need history lessons?
ciaran1212 wrote:You have no idea what the circumstances of my life are, so keep your criticism of me personally to yourself thanks. I didn't have the luxury of growing up with Irish, I didn't study it at school, and I have taken it up within the last few years. I also have to manage many other commitments. But I will be fluent, and more over my children (should I have any) will grow up as native speakers.

Great, and you have no idea of the lives of Scottish people, so don't try and dictate what they should do.
ciaran1212 wrote:Again, showing your utilitarian view of language. The language needs to be saved. If the best way to do that is to give people an incentive by making the language one of official business, then so be it. That's how English became dominant, so we know it works.

It seems like the Imperialist British should actually be your heroes. They also had an idea which they placed above everything else.
And no, language doesn't need to be saved. It's good to maintain the world's cultural heritage, but it is not a necessity. Food, water, fuel, these are necessities. Gaelic is not.
ciaran1212 wrote:I see, so because your friend was like that, that now means that the language is pointless and you'd be happy to see it die? Because of one nationalist who couldn't be bothered to learn the language? If anything I think it's sad that he didn't speak it. You said he was taught it in school, yet didn't speak it: people shouldn't have to learn their native language as a second language in school.

Example of lack of reading skills^.
And no, he was one of the more nationalist Scots, but most people don't care enough to learn a language - I hope this doesn't make you too sad. :cry:
ciaran1212 wrote:If I could re-wind time and save the myriad number of language that have been lost, I would. Each one is a different perspective on the world and something that enriches us all. Many have been lost permanently. Gaelic is not one of those. Your argument is like saying, "Why should we help that dying guy? You can bring back the dead, so why bother?

No, cos remember languages are more important than actual people, so that analogy doesn't fit, right?
ciaran1212 wrote:Sorry, weren't you just talking about how it is "natural" that people would want to learn the most useful language at the expense of others?

Yes and I also said that Gaelic should be encouraged and made more accessible for those who want to learn it, but you can't force people to do something they don't want to do, you can only persuade and encourage them. The problem for you is that most of what you say is full of holes and people don't tend to be convinced by such arguments.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-03-23, 19:14

@Set
Yay! I win! That was a beautiful pile of crap you just spewed. For a while there I thought you might persist in making your argument (terrible as it was), but no, you revert to name calling and personal attacks. Good.
This argument was pointless anyway; nobody with opinions like yours can be argued with by people with opinions like mine. It was inevitable that this is what would happen. We disagree too fundamentally.

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Set
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Set » 2012-03-23, 19:27

ciaran1212 wrote:Yay! I win! That was a beautiful pile of crap you just spewed.

Set wrote:Fight fire with fire I guess:...

Nice way of bowing out though :roll:
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-03-23, 19:46

Set wrote:
ciaran1212 wrote:Yay! I win! That was a beautiful pile of crap you just spewed.

Set wrote:Fight fire with fire I guess:...

Nice way of bowing out though :roll:

Well, you certainly made your feelings clear.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-03-23, 20:01

Perhaps the Kingdom of the Isles should become independent again. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Isles

ciaran1212 wrote:Gaelic was once spoken all over Scotland. It's no expansion, it's reclamation.

Welsh (or someting similar) was once spoken over large parts of Scotland, and English is spoken over large parts of Scotland.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Hunef » 2012-03-24, 0:31

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Perhaps the Kingdom of the Isles should become independent again. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Isles
I wonder whether Shetland Hjältland is still in pawn? What would it cost us to buy it back?
:hmm:
(Orkney Islands are probably too British now so let's not discuss them.)

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Welsh (or someting similar) was once spoken over large parts of Scotland, and English is spoken over large parts of Scotland.
And before the Central European Celtic language that we know was closely related to Welsh (as you pointed out) there was a language spoken there that today is completely extinct.

People should do their best to preserve whatever endangered language they speak, but please don't force it on complete ignorants, not even if their ancestors hundreds of years ago spoke it.
:ohno:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-03-24, 2:56

Hunef wrote:People should do their best to preserve whatever endangered language they speak, but please don't force it on complete ignorants,

If that was applied to ignorant newborns, all languages would disappear in one generation. :silly:

ciaran1212 wrote:all I'm saying is reverse it the same way.

Someone has a similar opinion to mine! :waytogo:

ciaran1212 wrote: I will be fluent, and more over my children (should I have any) will grow up as native speakers.

We (some of us, at least) hope that you succeed. :)
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby BezierCurve » 2012-03-24, 9:35

ciaran1212 wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
ciaran1212 wrote:I was referring to Scotland (that is if the Scots even decide to embrace the language after seceding. Seems like a waste of independence if they don't)

It would seem a very odd event indeed, if five million English-speaking Scots suddenly shifted to Gaelic. But interesting. :D


You mean like 4.5 million Irish people are trying to do with Irish? Just watch us.


Statistically speaking, most of those millions actually convinced me to abandon my ambitious plans to learn Irish. Almost every time I spoke to my friends and told them I'd like to speak Irish I heard "what for?". There was only one guy at work, who was willing to help me with it, but as he said himself, he had forgot most of it and so wasn't able to answer all the questions arising at the time.

As I answered your message in a "scrap" (hope you found it, I know myself it's easy to miss it here) I still want to learn some decent Irish one day, unfortunately can't do it now. Still, I wish you success too.
Brejkam wszystkie rule.

"I love tautologies, they're so ... tautological." Hunef

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Saim » 2012-03-24, 10:06

ciaran1212 wrote:
Set wrote:
hlysnan wrote:Self-preservation with regards to a culture? Scotland is becoming more and more Anglicised. There is no question that the number of Scottish Gaelic speakers is falling, not only as a proportion of the total population, which is an indicator of the influence of the language, but also in nominal figures, an indicator of vulnerability of the language. The question is, how can this be reversed? Well, one way is to improve the prestige of the language by granting official status, but is that enough? If people in the Lowlands have no attachment to Scottish Gaelic or the Highlands, that's going to present a problem for the cultural revival.

But you're not talking about self-preservation, you're talking about expansion.

Gaelic was once spoken all over Scotland. It's no expansion, it's reclamation.

Hmm, almost. Some of Scotland was British or Norn-speaking before it switched to Old English. Though I wouldn't say then that they have no connection to the Gaelic language, just making sure we don't stray from facts.


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