Scottish Independence

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hlysnan
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby hlysnan » 2012-03-22, 7:17

Saim wrote:That's just wrong. Asserting a minority's rights should not turn into xenophobia against the dominant group.

How is this xenophobia? If the Lowland Scots identify with England more than they do with culture of the Gaels, I don't think it's unreasonable for the Lowlands to join England instead of the Highlanders.

Saim wrote:Why does having a different culture mean you absolutely must get your own country? I find this narrative too simplistic. It's the same narrative ("one language, one country!") that's used to justify linguicide and the like in the first place.

All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

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Tenebrarum
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Tenebrarum » 2012-03-22, 8:38

hlysnan wrote:
Saim wrote:That's just wrong. Asserting a minority's rights should not turn into xenophobia against the dominant group.

How is this xenophobia? If the Lowland Scots identify with England more than they do with culture of the Gaels, I don't think it's unreasonable for the Lowlands to join England instead of the Highlanders.

Gah. That's not even the point. :?
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Set
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Set » 2012-03-22, 8:47

ciaran1212 wrote:Wow, ok. When you say that they (the English) are "not that different anyway", what do you mean? Scotland is (originally) an entity that gives borders to the land of the Gaelic people who live/lived there. To say that the Gaels (a Celtic people) are the same as the English (a Germanic people) is pretty ignorant. If you don't believe that these are valid identities for people in modern times, then that's because YOU don't feel that way. Other people do. When I read about the Gaels I think "us". Cultural/linguistic similarities between these people today have not always existed, and are a bad thing, a source of cultural/linguistic genocide and something that I believe should be reversed. The Scots had a unique language and culture. The weren't English. Then that started to change, for whatever reasons, and they have become Anglicized. They need to save what they have left of their original culture, before it's too late. A national sentiment will make people realise who they are and what they have and maybe the culture can be saved. You either do not appreciate how different the cultures were/are, or you place no value on them. We must preserve the cultures and languages of the world. I understand that there are many scots who do not feel that Gaelic has anything to do with them, either because they just don't care about cultures and heritage or because they are not of Gaelic decent. Perhaps the Scottish border should be redrawn to only include Gaelic Scots, and they can have there own country and the rest can stay in Britain. Or maybe the Low Lands Scots can move back to England. Either way, the pre-Anglo-Saxon Gaelic people of Scotland are most emphatically NOT the same as the English and they deserve their own country.

And you are and imperialist bastard.


Bringing ethnicity into this isn't valid. To say that to be Scottish is to be Gealic and to be English is to be Germanic is hugely ignorant. I don't think Scottish culture and language is any more under threat than it would be in an independent Scotland, unless the Scottish government tried to forcibly encourage it, which is just as wrong and reeks of (dirty) nationalism. I don't think there is any significant group of people in England anymore who are against minority languages in these places...so what benefit is there from independence? And yes Scotland has different culture, but the culture also differs between Edinburgh and the highlands or even just Glasgow. Just as the culture in London is different from that in Newcastle or Manchester...how does accepting a variety of cultures mean one doesn't place value on culture? Surely someone who wants to pointlessly split people up and encourage tensions between different groups is much more hateful of culture.

Anyway, you gave it away when you said that hearing about Gaels makes you think of 'us'. I have a feeling you just dislike English people and your reasons for an independent Scotland are just as bigoted.

And as I think I've made quite clear, I'm not against Scotland going independent, but I don't think Alex Salmond is the right reason.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-03-22, 10:51

Set wrote:Bringing ethnicity into this isn't valid. To say that to be Scottish is to be Gealic and to be English is to be Germanic is hugely ignorant.

I don't see why.
Set wrote:I don't think Scottish culture and language is any more under threat than it would be in an independent Scotland, unless the Scottish government tried to forcibly encourage it, which is just as wrong and reeks of (dirty) nationalism.


There's nothing wrong with nationalism. And while I don't know the ins and outs of language policy in Scotland, and I'm not trying to say that nothing is being done to preserve it, having their own country would give the Scots more self-respect and thus respect in their indigenous culture.
I also don't see why the Scottish government shouldn't forcibly encourage it. I think Scotland should exist to try and revive the Gaelic culture, and thus that should be one of their main policies.

Set wrote:I don't think there is any significant group of people in England anymore who are against minority languages in these places...so what benefit is there from independence?


International recognition of the Scottish people as a distinct, self-governing people with their own language, culture and heritage and the self-respect the Scots will develop as a result, which would hopefully lead to greater attention to the language and other endangered cultural property.

Set wrote:And yes Scotland has different culture, but the culture also differs between Edinburgh and the highlands or even just Glasgow. Just as the culture in London is different from that in Newcastle or Manchester...how does accepting a variety of cultures mean one doesn't place value on culture? Surely someone who wants to pointlessly split people up and encourage tensions between different groups is much more hateful of culture.


Giving distinct groups autonomy and international respect does not encourage tensions between people, it alleviates them. If there are tensions between the Scots and the English, it is because they are being forced to live as one people in the same country, a country that happens to have a vast majority of English people. The question really isn't "why should they be separate countries?", but "why should they be one?".

Set wrote:Anyway, you gave it away when you said that hearing about Gaels makes you think of 'us'. I have a feeling you just dislike English people and your reasons for an independent Scotland are just as bigoted.


I gave nothing away, as I wasn't trying to hide anything. So I feel Gaelic, is that a crime? If a Frenchman feels French or a Spaniard Spanish, is that also wrong? I don't dislike English people, only people like you who think that tensions can be gotten rid of by getting rid of the ethnic sentiments that cause them. The borders between people need to be respected, not plastered over. Then people could get along, when they are being treated as equals. I like lots of English people. lots of them who take pride in their heritage, language and customs and recognise the role they have played in the history of these islands and recognise that the decline of the Celtic people was and is lamentable, reversible and encourage their revival. It doesn't have to be a point of contention between us if they respect our differences.

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hlysnan
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby hlysnan » 2012-03-22, 11:27

Tenebrarum wrote:Gah. That's not even the point. :?

Xenophobia = irrational hatred or fear. This does not qualify as xenophobia. That is my point.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby md0 » 2012-03-22, 11:35

I don't think they will split from the UK at the end.

And anyways, is Cyprus the only country that does not want to split, but rather to reunite? :o
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hlysnan
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby hlysnan » 2012-03-22, 11:48

Korea, maybe? And don't forget Australia will be annexing New Zealand sometime soon enough! :wink:

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Tenebrarum
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Tenebrarum » 2012-03-22, 15:03

hlysnan wrote:Xenophobia = irrational hatred or fear. This does not qualify as xenophobia. That is my point.

And my point is: If dividing Scotland along some ethno-linguistic-god-knows-what line does not stem from deranged, irrational resentment and fear, then what could be? North Ireland I can understand, but freaking Scotland?

*waiting for your nationalism-tinted answer*
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-03-22, 16:49

Tenebrarum wrote:North Ireland I can understand

Many would claim otherwise. (And I mean the 1920s partition.)
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

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kalemiye
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby kalemiye » 2012-03-22, 16:51

Tenebrarum wrote:
hlysnan wrote:Xenophobia = irrational hatred or fear. This does not qualify as xenophobia. That is my point.

And my point is: If dividing Scotland along some ethno-linguistic-god-knows-what line does not stem from deranged, irrational resentment and fear, then what could be? North Ireland I can understand, but freaking Scotland?

*waiting for your nationalism-tinted answer*


Dividing all countries along ethnic lines is the typical UL solution for all the problems in the world.

ZOMG there is a minority group speaking an incredibly exotic and rare language in some island attached to IDKWHICHCOUNTRY in which the majority of people has a different language and culture... NEW NATION-STATE SHOULD BE CREATED.

Or at least official language status should be automatically granted to that exotic and rare language, after a 10 pages long discussion on which script is more suitable.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-03-22, 17:09

kalemiye wrote:Dividing all countries along ethnic lines is the typical UL solution for all the problems in the world.

Unfortunately, the most interesting languages are spoken by very small groups of people, and these groups usually live scattered among a larger population that speaks another language, making a state of its own impractical.

Consider Scottish Gaelic in the UK or the thirteen Sami Languages (some are extinct) in Norway/Sweden/Finland/Russia.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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kalemiye
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby kalemiye » 2012-03-22, 17:13

Unfortunately, the most interesting languages are spoken by very small groups of people


So, according to this statement, languages spoken by big groups of people are automatically labeled as uninteresting... wow.
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby loqu » 2012-03-22, 17:21

[Unilanger mode]Accept it Ren, Persian and Turkish are totally uninteresting. Azerbaijani may be OK though. But not as interesting as Coptic.[/Unilanger mode]
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2012-03-22, 17:26

kalemiye wrote:
Unfortunately, the most interesting languages are spoken by very small groups of people


So, according to this statement, languages spoken by big groups of people are automatically labeled as uninteresting... wow.

People like exotic and rare stuff.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-03-22, 17:50

Tenebrarum wrote: If dividing Scotland along some ethno-linguistic-god-knows-what line does not stem from deranged, irrational resentment and fear, then what could be? North Ireland I can understand, but freaking Scotland?


I wasn't really suggesting it, I realise that it's impossible practically speaking. But that's the only reason I'm not suggesting it. If they did live in two distinct areas I would advocate drawing a border.

kalemiye wrote:Dividing all countries along ethnic lines is the typical UL solution for all the problems in the world.

ZOMG there is a minority group speaking an incredibly exotic and rare language in some island attached to IDKWHICHCOUNTRY in which the majority of people has a different language and culture... NEW NATION-STATE SHOULD BE CREATED.

Or at least official language status should be automatically granted to that exotic and rare language, after a 10 pages long discussion on which script is more suitable.


This isn't some far removed Papuan language you know, there are people on this forum for whom this is a real issue. And unlike a lot of random minority languages this might actually get it's own country.

kalemiye wrote:
Unfortunately, the most interesting languages are spoken by very small groups of people


So, according to this statement, languages spoken by big groups of people are automatically labeled as uninteresting... wow.

Oh I'm sorry, were your feelings hurt? A little spiteful that nobody's interested in your language because is big, successful and influential? Well, my heart just bleeds for you.
And nobody's saying these minority languages are more interesting (nobody who's being objective about it anyway). Majority languages are great, we just don't need to be all that concerned about them, they're doing fine.

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Jurgen Wullenwever
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-03-22, 18:09

kalemiye wrote:
Unfortunately, the most interesting languages are spoken by very small groups of people


So, according to this statement, languages spoken by big groups of people are automatically labeled as uninteresting... wow.

There is a wide spectrum of interest levels between "the most interesting" and "uninteresting". :partyhat:

Wouldn't you find the circumstances around this scattered group of minority speakers much more interesting and emotionally gripping than the same information concerning monolingual majority language speakers? :?:

ciaran1212 wrote:This isn't some far removed Papuan language you know, there are people on this forum for whom this is a real issue. And unlike a lot of random minority languages this might actually get it's own country.

It will? Pray tell and enlighten us. :) (It seems rather farfetched though. :( )
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Ciarán12
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-03-22, 18:25

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
ciaran1212 wrote:This isn't some far removed Papuan language you know, there are people on this forum for whom this is a real issue. And unlike a lot of random minority languages this might actually get it's own country.

It will? Pray tell and enlighten us. :) (It seems rather farfetched though. :( )


I said "might", not "will". I was referring to Scotland (that is if the Scots even decide to embrace the language after seceding. Seems like a waste of independence if they don't)

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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-03-22, 18:45

ciaran1212 wrote:I was referring to Scotland (that is if the Scots even decide to embrace the language after seceding. Seems like a waste of independence if they don't)

It would seem a very odd event indeed, if five million English-speaking Scots suddenly shifted to Gaelic. But interesting. :D
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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kalemiye
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby kalemiye » 2012-03-22, 22:04

ciaran1212 wrote:This isn't some far removed Papuan language you know, there are people on this forum for whom this is a real issue. And unlike a lot of random minority languages this might actually get it's own country.


I'm all for far removed Papuan languages, I am sure there are people on this forum for whom this is a real issue. You are really an insensitive dude. Not to mention that the comment was kinda racist, are far removed Papuan languages somehow less important than Scottish Gaelic?
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Ciarán12
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Re: Scottish Independence

Postby Ciarán12 » 2012-03-22, 22:25

kalemiye wrote:
ciaran1212 wrote:This isn't some far removed Papuan language you know, there are people on this forum for whom this is a real issue. And unlike a lot of random minority languages this might actually get it's own country.


I'm all for far removed Papuan languages, I am sure there are people on this forum for whom this is a real issue. You are really an insensitive dude. Not to mention that the comment was kinda racist, are far removed Papuan languages somehow less important than Scottish Gaelic?


Not at all, I was just addressing your attitude that this was just some sort of "help the rare, endangered language by creating a nation-state for it" argument that had no relation to me or presumably any other poster here. You seemed to be implying that I was making a kind of hobbyist, theoretical debate about how we feel about things going on in far-flung corners of the world rather than something that I feel deeply about. I certainly wasn't implying that I think that Papuan languages are any less valid than any other language, I just didn't like your implication that this had as little to do with me as any other such language. I also fail to see how I have been racist.


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