So were Egyptians Black?

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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby loqu » 2011-12-12, 20:36

johntm wrote:What did it say?

He asked me if I wanted something from him. I think he didn't understand that I can't be bovvered.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-12, 23:19

sa wulfs wrote:At least in Spanish there's not much of a concept for a separate race consisting of what you call "brown" in English. In Spanish, those people are white. Maybe you're arguing about a whole lot of nothing?
No we aren't, we're arguing over the usefulness of race as a scientific concept. "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" are fairly unambiguous in English: they refer to a pseudoscientific classification of people based on their resemblance to a fictitious ideal that was popular during the age of colonialism, especially the 19th century (see Tyler's link about "scientific racism").

On the linguistic front, would you say native Bolivians are white?
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby sa wulfs » 2011-12-13, 0:08

No, I'd say they're a separate group, Indians/American natives. Then actual Indians and the like would also be a separate group, then Far Eastern people. And I guess Pacific natives too.

Point is, I wouldn't say Arabs, Berbers, Turks and the like are conceptualized as non-white here.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-13, 0:12

sa wulfs wrote:No, I'd say they're a separate group, Indians/American natives. Then actual Indians and the like would also be a separate group, then Far Eastern people. And I guess Pacific natives too.

Point is, I wouldn't say Arabs, Berbers, Turks and the like are conceptualized as non-white here.
Yeah, but there has been significant mixing between Iberians and North African populations. That doesn't exist in the Anglophone world. And for people in the Balkans and the Caucasus, the line is very fuzzy indeed.

And all of this still only tells us how race is viewed socially, not as evidence for race as a scientific classification. If he had said "I think the Egyptians looked white", I would have to respectfully disagree, but I couldn't say he's wrong because it's totally arbitrary anyway. It's when he said that the Egyptians were objectively white and the same race as Europeans that I took umbrage.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby sa wulfs » 2011-12-13, 0:30

All I'm saying is that there's frames of reference for which "the Egyptians were objectively white" makes perfect sense. Sure, no one should say that while speaking in English, but I was just putting forth a theory to explain where he might be coming from.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-13, 5:11

Race is not objective in any language. It's a social phenomenon.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby sa wulfs » 2011-12-13, 10:38

Of course it's a social phenomenon, who's saying otherwise?

And yet, in a Spanish context, I'm objectively white.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby kalemiye » 2011-12-13, 15:08

OMG guys, srsly, everybody knows Egyptians were motherf*cking aliens.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby MillMaths » 2011-12-13, 15:30

Yeah, how could they otherwise have constructed those pyramids with such geometric precision?

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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby kalemiye » 2011-12-13, 15:41

Sophie wrote:Yeah, how could they otherwise have constructed those pyramids with such geometric precision?


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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-13, 22:33

sa wulfs wrote:Of course it's a social phenomenon, who's saying otherwise?
IsurusOxyrinchus was! Did you read the thread?
And yet, in a Spanish context, I'm objectively white.
No you're not. That's not what objective means. If you said "in a Spanish context, gravity does not exist" that would be just as subjective and factually wrong.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby sa wulfs » 2011-12-13, 23:16

Chekhov wrote:
sa wulfs wrote:Of course it's a social phenomenon, who's saying otherwise?
IsurusOxyrinchus was! Did you read the thread?

Well, doh. I didn't mean in the whole thread, I meant in this discussion between you and I.
And yet, in a Spanish context, I'm objectively white.
No you're not. That's not what objective means. If you said "in a Spanish context, gravity does not exist" that would be just as subjective and factually wrong.

That's semantics. In a language that has a separate colour category for "green", the leaf I'm thinking of right now is objectively green. Race and gravity don't come even close as far as linguistic categorization goes.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-14, 0:10

Well, perhaps it wasn't the best comparison since gravity is an empirical fact and race isn't. Still, if you have to qualify something with "in this cultural context", it's by default not objective. Colours are fairly arbitrary too.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Saim » 2011-12-14, 0:43

hlysnan wrote:Simply because they speak Arabic doesn't make them Arab.

Yes it does, that's the primary definition of an "Arab".

Would you say Moroccans are Arab?

The ones that speak Arabic, yes. The ones that speak Berber are, shockingly, Berbers.

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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-14, 0:44

There isn't a very clear definition of Arab at all besides "speaks Arabic".
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Saim » 2011-12-14, 1:02

NulNuk wrote: then the Black Egyptians from the south ruled Egypt

Citation needed. Really.

The Nubians/Kushites were black and they indeed did rule Egypt in the twenty-fifth dynasty.

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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby darespace » 2011-12-14, 2:37

The Kushites were not Egyptians but.. Kushites.

And the population of Kush was predominantly Caucasoid (R. A. Oliver).

What you do not want to understand is that there’re branches of anthropology that determinates different humans groups (races or ancestries) in accordance with cranial measurements. Such categorizations are not directly related with skin colors.

Terms such as “brown” have no scientific value because they’re based on a merely subjective perception of a skin tone: in fact by the term brown one can refer to Caucasian/European and Mongoloid/Asian people at the same time, the Arabs and the Native Americans in instance.

North African (non-sub Saharan African) people, Middle Easterners and actual Europeans are all Caucasoid despite their respective skin tones, that are scientifically irrelevant.
Defining the Egyptians “Caucasoid” is not a decision, but it is what anthropology does. Denying that is denying science.

"Native Bolivians" are Mongoloid, just like all the natives of America.

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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-14, 3:57

Oh hey, now he's backing up his scientific racism with cutting-edge techniques like phrenology and an obscure scholar of African history from decades ago. (Most of the results I found when I searched "R.A. Oliver" were from a physicist. Or does that field determine the scientific merit of race as well?)
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby kalemiye » 2011-12-14, 7:58

Ancient Egyptians were racially mixed, although southerners were darker than northerners - probably they would fall in the modern category of "brown". Ancient Egyptian culture and religion are thought to be typically African, at least in origin, while in later stages of its history it had a closer relation with Levantine and Near Eastern cultures.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-14, 8:16

Who says they were typically African? Just curious. I don't see any connection between Egypt and other major African empires like Mali and Ghana.
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