So were Egyptians Black?

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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-09, 4:50

Copts are an ethnoreligious group. They're visibly distinct from Arabs.
Prove it. While you're at it, prove that Protestant Koreans look different from Shinto Japanese.
Everyone was shorter back then though.
And real Caucasians are not white. See how this works?
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-12-09, 10:22

hlysnan wrote:Copts are [...] visibly distinct from Arabs.

I agree. Because they wear cruxifics, and the women don't wear headscarves.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby IsurusOxyrinchus » 2011-12-09, 17:58

Chekhov wrote:
It's not a claim. It's a fact.
Then it should be easy to back it up. Cite some reliable sources and we'll talk.

I started by posting a visible source of several reliable sources to make your work easier.

Chekhov wrote:
The Egyptians left the famous Egyptian mummies that are .. Caucasoid.
Bare assertions are not facts.

It's an assertion based on a fact. My sources are behind.

What about yours?

Do you have some reliable source denying that the mummies show Caucasoid men?
Do you have some reliable source confirming your statment about the Egyptians not being "white as we understand it"??

Chekhov wrote:
2) “Negroid” (aka “Congoid”) and “Caucasoid” are neither outdated nor unscientific. On the contrary they’re scientific terms used instead of the common “black” and “white” that don’t really mean too much for a physical anthropologist.
Except that racial designations are now widely considered unscientific among anthropologists.



So why didn’t you make the one who started this forum notice this instead of waiting for the person confirming ancient Egyptians were not black?
Wasn’t “chic” enough to deny what you name racial designations since the very beginning of this discussion because whites aren’t a minority there?
_ Except that physical and forensic anthropologists use specific designations to distinguish main human racial groups aka ancestries:
Caucasoid (aka European), Negroid (aka African, an ambiguous term because north Africa is not black), Mongoloid (aka East Asian), in instance.
Egyptians were Caucasoid.


Chekhov wrote:The American Anthropological Association recently released a statement to this effect.



The “American Anthropological Association” is an impersonal entity and I don’t see who’re those great scholars who’ve subscribed such a statement.
De facto anthropologists do use those denominations.
In his book named “Forensic Anthropology” (2006), Bradley J. Adams describes various cranial characteristics of the Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid types respectively. Absolutely normal.
When talking about human phenotypes, name changes are just temporary trends, but the content doesn’t change at all:

Another trend in forensic literature in the last decade of the 20th century was to use the term ancestry instead of race. The terms European, African and Asian have replaced Caucasoid/White Negroid/Black, and Mongoloid/Yellow/Red. An example of this trend can be found in A Lab Manual and Workbook for Physical Anthropology. This is widely used introductory lab manual that has gone through several editions, where many students of physical anthropology get their first introduction to a scientific approach to racial classification of unkown individuals in forensic contexts. In the first edition, France and Horn provide a summary of seven cranial morphologic and metric characters that can be used to classify an unknown individual as Negroid, Caucasoid, or Mongoloid. In the fourth edition of the lab manual the same seven cranial morphological and metric characters are used to classify the unkown as being African European or (east) Asian ancestry. The underlying assumptions are the same.” (A. Schmitt, E. Cunha, Humana Press, 2006).
Plus that’s just about the Anglo American space and not about the world.

In physical and forensic anthropology I can call an Asian guy “Mongoloid” or “of East Asian ancestry” if you prefer: but I must classify, it’s not something I’m just allowed to do.
Mummies have been classified as Caucasoid.

Chekhov wrote:
As far as “Negro” is concerned, the United States Census Bureau still includes "Negro" on the 2010 United States Census, alongside “black” and “African-American”.
That's irrelevant. They aren't an authority on the subject; scientists are.

It’s absolutely relevant because you had said I can’t understand how that terminology is “outdated”, but it is still in use and accepted (by scientists as well).
Chekhov wrote:
What you said “they were not white as we understand it” is far from being a scientific argument.
Race is not scientific.

Aren’t phenotypes scientific? Such classifications are absolutely scientific, whatever is the term one uses “races” or “ancestry”.
And the Egyptians were Caucasoid.

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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby NulNuk » 2011-12-09, 23:41

no one here learned Egyptian history?????, the first Egyptians where white and had no facial hair, then the Black Egyptians from the south ruled Egypt, and later the Hyxsos (an Aramaic people) conquered and ruled Egypt.
up until the Naqada period, the Egyptians where ppl connected with the Levant, the Naqada ppl no one knows where they come from, but they simed to have Nubian influence, any way, the Egyptians according to ALL DNA researches, where mostly Afroasiatic Caucasians, and DNA prubes that today Egyptians and agent Egyptians are related (most of them ), and they are a a mix of ppl from arround the Nile, the Levant and the Hyxsos, plus some Arab, and Indoeuropean influence.
over all, you have tree dominant Egyptian races, one from the Levant (or some would say the Levant have one from Africa ), one from Nubia and the Hyxsos.
and that would make the Egyptians a multi racial mixed culture, right from the beginning.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Saim » 2011-12-10, 1:26

hlysnan wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:The Copts today look exactly like the Muslim Egyptians today!

When you strip them all off their clothes, that is. But that can't happen.

Copts are an ethnoreligious group. They're visibly distinct from Arabs.

Copts are Arab. They've spoken Arabic natively for centuries.

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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby hlysnan » 2011-12-10, 2:06

Chekhov wrote:Prove it. While you're at it, prove that Protestant Koreans look different from Shinto Japanese

When I find something I'll get back to you.

Chekhov wrote:And real Caucasians are not white. See how this works?

Nope, I don't.

Saim wrote:Copts are Arab. They've spoken Arabic natively for centuries.

Simply because they speak Arabic doesn't make them Arab. Would you say Moroccans are Arab?

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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-10, 7:18

I started by posting a visible source of several reliable sources to make your work easier.
Where?
Do you have some reliable source denying that the mummies show Caucasoid men?
Do you have some reliable source confirming your statment about the Egyptians not being "white as we understand it"??
That's not the way debate works. When you make a claim, and somebody else challenges it, it's your job to back it up. It's not their job to do your work for you.
So why didn’t you make the one who started this forum notice this instead of waiting for the person confirming ancient Egyptians were not black?
Wasn’t “chic” enough to deny what you name racial designations since the very beginning of this discussion because whites aren’t a minority there?
You're going to have to start writing in better English if you want me to respond to statements like these.
Except that physical and forensic anthropologists use specific designations to distinguish main human racial groups aka ancestries:
Caucasoid (aka European), Negroid (aka African, an ambiguous term because north Africa is not black), Mongoloid (aka East Asian), in instance.
Egyptians were Caucasoid.
Name six who do.
The “American Anthropological Association” is an impersonal entity and I don’t see who’re those great scholars who’ve subscribed such a statement.
Its statements are arrived at by consensus and thus hold more weight than those of a single scholar.
In his book named “Forensic Anthropology” (2006), Bradley J. Adams describes various cranial characteristics of the Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid types respectively. Absolutely normal.
Bradley J. Adams is a forensic anthropologist. Nice try, but he's not an authority on race, let along ancient Egypt.
Aren’t phenotypes scientific? Such classifications are absolutely scientific, whatever is the term one uses “races” or “ancestry”.
Phenotypes are not the same thing as race.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby IsurusOxyrinchus » 2011-12-10, 13:43

Chekhov wrote:
I started by posting a visible source of several reliable sources to make your work easier.
Where?

I posted a video with lot of references to various scientific reviews on the very first page.

Chekhov wrote:
Do you have some reliable source denying that the mummies show Caucasoid men?
Do you have some reliable source confirming your statement about the Egyptians not being "white as we understand it"??
That's not the way debate works. When you make a claim, and somebody else challenges it, it's your job to back it up. It's not their job to do your work for you.

So you don’t have sources.


Chekhov wrote:
Except that physical and forensic anthropologists use specific designations to distinguish main human racial groups aka ancestries:
Caucasoid (aka European), Negroid (aka African, an ambiguous term because north Africa is not black), Mongoloid (aka East Asian), in instance.
Egyptians were Caucasoid.
Name six who do.

Six?? Those classifications are used by all forensic anthropologists, and they’re needed. If you don’t know the matter, you shouldn’t oppose my information.

Chekhov wrote:
The “American Anthropological Association” is an impersonal entity and I don’t see who’re those great scholars who’ve subscribed such a statement.
Its statements are arrived at by consensus and thus hold more weight than those of a single scholar.
In his book named “Forensic Anthropology” (2006), Bradley J. Adams describes various cranial characteristics of the Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid types respectively. Absolutely normal.
Bradley J. Adams is a forensic anthropologist. Nice try, but he's not an authority on race, let along ancient Egypt.

Isn’t forensic anthropology related with science?
Methods used by forensic anthropologists to figure out races/ancestries have been applied to Egyptian mummies. So mine is not a "try"..

Tutankhamun head reconstructed by the scholars:
Image

From nationalgeographic.com (2005),

"King Tut's New Face: Behind the Forensic Reconstruction
Scientists have created the first ever bust of the ancient Egyptian King Tutankhamun based on 3-D CT scans of his 3,300-year-old mummy. Zahi Hawass, secretary general of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities, led the effort, joined by forensic artists and physical anthropologists from Egypt, France, and the United States. Three independent teams created busts of Tut.
First a CT-scan-based skull model was made for forensic anthropologist Jean-Noël Vignal of the Centre Technique de la Gendarmerie Nationale.
Vignal typically works with police to reconstruct victims of violent crime. He identified the skull as that of a male, 18 to 20 years old, with CAUCASOID FEATURES. "Caucasoid" describes a major group of peoples of Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, and India


(http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... tface.html)

“let along Ancient Egypt”? (…)



In 2011 Swiss scientists reconstructed DNA profile of Tutankhamun which showed that Tutankhamun has Haplogroup R1b1a2, to which more then 50% of European men belong:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/08/0 ... OR20110801



Chekhov wrote:
Aren’t phenotypes scientific? Such classifications are absolutely scientific, whatever is the term one uses “races” or “ancestry”.
Phenotypes are not the same thing as race.

Race/ancestry is characterized by phenotypes. As I said “race” and “ancestry” are two different words whose anthropological meaning is exactly the same. Using “ancestry” instead of “race” is just a trend and not an obligation. Talking about races/ancestry in anthropology is not only correct but needed.

NulNuk wrote: the first Egyptians where white and had no facial hair

So the first Egyptians were aliens.
NulNuk wrote: then the Black Egyptians from the south ruled Egypt

Citation needed. Really.

Image

Rahotep.
Notice that he is neither Negroid … nor without facial hair.

Image
That’s his wife, Nofret.
The statues are from the Cairo Museum.
They seems to be quite different from Eddie Murphy and Iman..

Leave the dark colors they sometime used to represent themselves on mural depictions: they were certainly a relatively dark white people, but they also exaggerated their darkness because dark colors had positive symbolic meanings related with fertility.
These is how the Egyptians realistically represented the typical Negroid features; sub Saharan slaves beaten by Egyptian guardians:
Image
I think that this whole discussion should now stop right here.

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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-10, 22:53

So you don’t have sources.
If you can read, you know that's not the issue. But since you asked, here is a relevant article on the subject.
Those classifications are used by all forensic anthropologists, and they’re needed.
All of them, eh? Got anything to back that up?
Isn’t forensic anthropology related with science?
Yes. That doesn't mean race is a scientific concept any more than luminiferous ether, the heliocentric universe, or any other erroneous idea held by scientists in the past.
Methods used by forensic anthropologists to figure out races/ancestries have been applied to Egyptian mummies.
And Lysenkoism has been applied to agriculture. So what? I doubt that a few members of the royal dynasty are representative of all Egyptians in any case.
"Caucasoid" describes a major group of peoples of Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, and India”
That's funny, because according to other classifications, "Caucasoid" means "white".
In 2011 Swiss scientists reconstructed DNA profile of Tutankhamun which showed that Tutankhamun has Haplogroup R1b1a2, to which more then 50% of European men belong:
Which is fascinating but hardly proof that he was "white" in the same sense that Europeans are. Are Native Americans genetically Asians?
Race/ancestry is characterized by phenotypes. As I said “race” and “ancestry” are two different words whose anthropological meaning is exactly the same. Using “ancestry” instead of “race” is just a trend and not an obligation. Talking about races/ancestry in anthropology is not only correct but needed.
You haven't shown that race is related to phenotypes even if it is sometimes useful as a classification (though that doesn't make it any more scientifically rigorous).
So the first Egyptians were aliens.
So is that your real point here?
Citation needed. Really.
I am not going to argue the Egyptians were black any more than they were white.
Rahotep.
Notice that he is neither Negroid … nor without facial hair.
Not that posting images of individual Egyptians is compelling, nor are subjective impressions of race, but he doesn't look white to me.
The statues are from the Cairo Museum.
They seems to be quite different from Eddie Murphy and Iman.
Probably because they were North Africans, not African-Americans. They also seem quite different from Bill Hicks and Kate Moss, for that matter.
Leave the dark colors they sometime used to represent themselves on mural depictions: they were certainly a relatively dark white people, but they also exaggerated their darkness because dark colors had positive symbolic meanings related with fertility.
Got a source for that?
I think that this whole discussion should now stop right here.
I think it should when you provide scholarly articles, not images from Google.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby IsurusOxyrinchus » 2011-12-11, 0:15

It's clear that you do not know the matter and that you're ingoring the links and the whole information I provided to confirm the obvious.

The point is that your attempt to play the part of the committed “intellectual” when it was not really needed failed miserably and now you’re just trolling at random.

So it’s useless to go on, also because – to be honest, I’ve fucked up you already.

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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-11, 3:24

If you have no better response than to accuse me of trolling, then I won't insist on continuing this farce. You haven't convinced me of anything and I refuse to take your claims seriously until you start backing them up with logical arguments and reliable sources, something you've been unable to do so far. To wit: YouTube and Google Images are not reliable sources. Scholarly articles are. (And no, National Geographic is not scholarly either; it's a newsmagazine.)
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby IsurusOxyrinchus » 2011-12-11, 16:12

That’s really the easiest way to flame: ignoring the actual content of the messages one is opposing while commenting them at random. At least show some elaborateness, if you want to be a decent troll.

Chekhov wrote:To wit: YouTube and Google Images are not reliable sources.

_“YouTube” contains anything and so also reliable sources related to the issue, the scholars mentioned in the video I posted in instance: Simson R. Najovits author of “Egypt, Trunk of the Tree”, Barbara Watterson from the University of Liverpool, L. Balout and C. Roubet editors of “La momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à l’Égyptologie”, Thomas A. Cockburn, Eve Cockburn and T. A. Reyman who edited “Mummies, Disease and Ancient Cultures”, E. M. Braunstein, S. J. White, W. Russell, J. E. Harris editors of “Paleoradiologic evaluation of the Egyptian royal mummies”, G. E. Smith and others.

An example from “Paleoradiologic evaluation of the Egyptian royal mummies”, p. 351, about the mummies the researchers analyzed: “These people were CAUCASIAN”. <<<=========
(http://www.springerlink.com/content/r125661p47672345/)

The content of these researches doesn’t cease to be highly reliable because someone posted it in the YouTube. The source is not the Tube; it’s that list of researchers.

_ “Google images” contains also relevant images, unless the Cairo Museum is not a reliable source of Egyptian portraits. The source is not Google, but the Cairo Museum.

Chekhov wrote: National Geographic is not scholarly either; it's a newsmagazine.


_National Geographic is a magazine supposed to divulgate the achievements of scholarship just like the forensic reconstruction of Tutankhamun face, unless Zahi Hawass head of Egypt’s Supreme Council of Antiquities and forensic anthropologist Jean-Noël Vignal are not reliable sources.
But now I wonder: why do you expect you to be able to understand something more complex than an article written on the National Geographic if you do not even know the simplest forensic distinctions?
Also: to make that article even more authoritative, I posted the result of the Tutankhamun DNA project published by iGENEA, which has established that the pharaoh belongs to the haplogroup R1b1a2, which more than 50% of all men in Western Europe belong to.

Besides the long list of scholars demonstrating Egyptians were Caucasoid, I showed how distinctions based on ancestry are relevant to physical and forensic anthropology by mentioning scholars such as Bradley J. Adams, A. Schmitt, E. Cunha.

I confirm the obvious: Egyptians were Caucasoid. Sources I used to confirm this fact:
At least 14 scholars (modestly speaking)

Your unscientific POV claim: “It's clear that Egyptians were not white as we understand it”. Sources you posted to support the claim:
0

Don’t vandalize and lie when someone debunks your arguments. It’s extremely unfair and it’s not really honorable for any decent troll. As far as I’m concerned, you’re currently on my “ignore” list and the question ends here.

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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-11, 17:36

So just so we're clear: You join a language forum for the sole purpose of airing your controversial, pseudoscientific views about race, and you accuse me of being a troll when I challenge them?

What you don't realize is that it doesn't matter if you post random photos from the Cairo Museum, because if it doesn't appear in a peer-reviewed journal, it's not a scholarly source. A YouTube video of Steven Pinker talking about the human brain is fascinating, but it's not the same as a citation from one of his books. One is scientific, the other is not.

By the way, I did post a reliable source from Google Books, as in a peer-reviewed academic work on the subject. (That makes one more than you did.) Photos of Tutankhamun are not peer-reviewed. You're relying entirely on others to interpret them as "Caucasoid", except that doesn't work because in order to do that they must have the preconceived notion of Egyptians as such. To me, he looks pretty damn brown. (And like I said, he's hardly indicative of what all Egyptians looked like anyway.)

As for the genetic argument, let me remind you that a) there are a lot of haplogroups and that one originated in Central Asia*, and b) like I said, few would consider Native Americans and Asians to be the same race although they're more closely genetically related than many other ethnic groupings. Why, it's almost as if race is a totally arbitrary conceit!

*So do you consider Turks and Armenians to be "white", then? It must be easy when you can definite whiteness to mean whatever the hell you want it to mean for the sake of your argument.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby loqu » 2011-12-11, 20:45

Chekhov wrote:So just so we're clear: You join a language forum for the sole purpose of airing your controversial, pseudoscientific views about race, and you accuse me of being a troll when I challenge them?

Yeah, I've been tempted to ask him what languages he's interested in. But I thought hey, I can't be bovvered.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-12-12, 1:11

loqu wrote:
Chekhov wrote:So just so we're clear: You join a language forum for the sole purpose of airing your controversial, pseudoscientific views about race, and you accuse me of being a troll when I challenge them?

Yeah, I've been tempted to ask him what languages he's interested in. But I thought hey, I can't be bovvered.
Look at his profile, silly: he speaks Hittite. Er. Natively.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby Chekhov » 2011-12-12, 1:13

Maybe Ancient Egyptian, the direct ancestor of his native tongue, Italian. (Hint hint.)
Last edited by Chekhov on 2011-12-12, 1:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-12-12, 1:37

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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby loqu » 2011-12-12, 6:31

ILuvEire wrote:
loqu wrote:
Chekhov wrote:So just so we're clear: You join a language forum for the sole purpose of airing your controversial, pseudoscientific views about race, and you accuse me of being a troll when I challenge them?

Yeah, I've been tempted to ask him what languages he's interested in. But I thought hey, I can't be bovvered.
Look at his profile, silly: he speaks Hittite. Er. Natively.

Oh, sorry, I should have checked. I'll ask him to teach me Hittite.

And I guess he didn't like my previous post, judging from the MP I received.
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby johntm » 2011-12-12, 6:38

What did it say?
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Re: So were Egyptians Black?

Postby sa wulfs » 2011-12-12, 20:26

At least in Spanish there's not much of a concept for a separate race consisting of what you call "brown" in English. In Spanish, those people are white. Maybe you're arguing about a whole lot of nothing?
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