Evolution versus Creationism

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Evolution versus Creationism

I believe in Evolution
88
80%
I believe in Creationism
7
6%
I believe in Itelligent Design
4
4%
I believe in Theistic Evolutionism
11
10%
 
Total votes: 110

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Lazar Taxon
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-07-24, 15:06

Theistic evolution is the idea that evolution has happened, and the geological record is true, but that God was guiding or directing it - this is pretty much the position of the Catholic Church. Intelligent design, as best I can tell, is creationism framed as a secular scientific theory.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-24, 18:27

Lazar Taxon wrote:Theistic evolution is the idea that evolution has happened, and the geological record is true, but that God was guiding or directing it - this is pretty much the position of the Catholic Church. Intelligent design, as best I can tell, is creationism framed as a secular scientific theory.
That sounds like the definition of ID to me, but maybe ID downplays the evolution part and plays up the Goddidit part.

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-24, 18:35

mōdgethanc wrote:
Lazar Taxon wrote:Theistic evolution is the idea that evolution has happened, and the geological record is true, but that God was guiding or directing it - this is pretty much the position of the Catholic Church. Intelligent design, as best I can tell, is creationism framed as a secular scientific theory.
That sounds like the definition of ID to me, but maybe ID downplays the evolution part and plays up the Goddidit part.

The accounts of "intelligent design" which I've read don't sound anything at all like the theistic evolution I was taught in Catholic school. (Basically, my science teacher taught me evolution in exactly the same way it's taught in secular schools, then in religion class the teacher was like, "Isn't it amazing that God was directing all that behind the scenes?")
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Saim » 2013-07-27, 1:50

acryllic wrote:So ... Evolution is Darwin's theory: survival of the fittest.

No.

1) Darwin is not a prophet of evolution. He was just one of the more important thinkers that helped develop the idea.
2) "Survival of the fittest" was originally not used by Darwin, but it was indeed adapted by him later. The problem here is that the word "fittest" is ambiguous. Normally people think of stronger or bigger animals when they think of "fitter"; in reality, this quotation is only accurate if you define "fit" as "best adapted to a given niche".

What is Intelligent Design and Theistic Evolutionism?

Intelligent design - a synonym for creationism invented to make it seem almost secular

Theistic evolutionism - accepting basic scientific fact (i.e. evolution) but still believing in some unfalsifiable hypotheses about the creation of the universe/the afterlife/etc.

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-27, 4:21

acryllic wrote:So ... Evolution is Darwin's theory: survival of the fittest.
Evolution is the paradigm that all biologists accept. "Survival of the fittest" is not a phrase Darwin ever used and it was coined after his death to refer to eugenics.
Saim wrote:Darwin is not a prophet of evolution. He was just one of the more important thinkers that helped develop the idea.
The most important, but it's often ignored that there were others, including some of his contemporaries. Science doesn't happen in leaps and bounds but through slow, painstaking work and experimentation. No discovery is possible unless scientists share their findings with each other and the scientific community.
"Survival of the fittest" was originally not used by Darwin, but it was indeed adapted by him later. The problem here is that the word "fittest" is ambiguous. Normally people think of stronger or bigger animals when they think of "fitter"; in reality, this quotation is only accurate if you define "fit" as "best adapted to a given niche".
Yeah really. Anyone who knows anything about evolution knows that "fit" in an evolutionary sense just means more adapted to the environment an organism finds itself in.

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Varislintu » 2013-09-30, 10:04

I've stumbled on a rather bizarre discussion between IDists and evolution proponents:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intellig ... arwinists/

I wanted to share it here because it slightly boggles my mind, to be honest. I mean the discussion that starts a bit further down in the long comments section mostly between the people called William, kairo-something, Axel, Jerad and Elizabeth. Basically we have there a couple of evolution proponents that sound knowledgable and reasonable to me, patiently counter arguing the rather obtuse sounding IDists claims that, among other things, science speaks about morality, evolution is not scientific, there is a conspiracy of "Darwinists", everybody should know what "Darwinist" means even if they seem to use it to describe a myriad of beliefs and moral positions, etc.

What's fascinating is that the IDists clearly think that they are the ones using reason and logic, and that evolution is a position arrived at only through either a desire to be free from moral constraints, or wilful lying, or an intellectually weak, emotional disposition.

What I'm wondering is that if an IDist were to read this discussion, would they read it as the IDists making the more sense? Would they read the same thing I do, but find the IDists holding the rational end of argumentation here? Because in my eyes, the IDists do so unbelievably, miserably badly here. Not just that, but their utter paranoia concerning Darwinist conspiracy, and their conviction that every opposing opinion and argument is made in bad faith, and their heavy usage of the word "lie" instead of actually responding to what is being argued, to me makes them seem almost mentally unstable. But they truly seem to think they are the ones upholding the torch of honest, informed discussion here.

I guess I was a bit surprised at how these IDists view evolution proponents so similarly to how we evolution proponents usually view IDists. Even if to me, the sides in this issue are not mirror images separated only by a different conclusion. I feel that ID has failed markedly at delivering anything that would count as convincing science, or even really a clear claim or suggested prediction value. Whereas evolution is backed by an abundance of science. So how is it possible that people who seem reasonably intelligent and articulate can sit at the ID end, look at the evolution end, and be convinced that science, reason, logic, and morality are not just unsatisfactory in the evolution camp but completely lacking and incompatible with it?

What I started wondering, while reading a good chunk of the bizarre discussion I linked to, was whether it would look different to me, if I happened to be an IDist, but otherwise the same in terms of desiring intellectual honesty and ability for reading comprehension and tastes in argumentation style. What do all those silent IDist onlookers of such a discussion think about it? It would be interesting to know.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Lur » 2013-09-30, 17:02

I've had just those thoughts myself.

I stopped bothering refuting creationists in my teens. I became bored with the non issue. So what I like to do now is having a dialogue with sane people who are interested so they understand better how evolution seems to work and so on. I like teaching things somehow. It's more rewarding :lol:
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Varislintu » 2013-10-01, 17:52

Lur wrote:I've had just those thoughts myself.

I stopped bothering refuting creationists in my teens. I became bored with the non issue. So what I like to do now is having a dialogue with sane people who are interested so they understand better how evolution seems to work and so on. I like teaching things somehow. It's more rewarding :lol:


It takes a looot of patience, that's for sure. Usually it's not even worth reading discussions on the topic, but somehow this one offered a new insight to me. I guess I was surprised that the discussion gave the impression to me that a lot of IDs "footsoldiers" are actually convinced that all the science, logic and rationality is in ID, and none of it in evolution. How does something like that happen to people? I can understand being against evolution for some kind of strange moral reasons, or of course religious ones. But honestly, scientific ones?
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby ling » 2013-10-01, 19:08

Varislintu wrote:What I'm wondering is that if an IDist were to read this discussion, would they read it as the IDists making the more sense? Would they read the same thing I do, but find the IDists holding the rational end of argumentation here? Because in my eyes, the IDists do so unbelievably...

You misspelled IDiots.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby linguoboy » 2013-10-01, 19:36

ling wrote:You misspelled IDiots.

Because nothing quite says "rational and scientific" like schoolyard taunts...
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Varislintu » 2013-10-02, 9:31

linguoboy wrote:
ling wrote:You misspelled IDiots.

Because nothing quite says "rational and scientific" like schoolyard taunts...


Yeah. For that reason, and also because I don't think it's very descriptive of the IDists for example in the thread I read. They are not stupid, which is what makes this so fascinating to me. I want to puzzle out what their brain does to wrangle the same information into a completely different outcome.

Interestingly, the discussion around the claim that 'belief in evolution logically leads to condoning rape' that started in the thread I linked, was continued on a skeptic site between some of the same participants. It's also interesting reading, although once again the IDist eventually reacts with the strange conviction that his points are obvious and people are just pretending not to get them, and are "lying". I think it's a sincere reaction on his part, and thus puzzling. The discussion is here:

http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/?p=3349

What I think is happening there is partly that this IDist guy Brent has arrived at his belief in God (or confirmed it for himself) partly because of his belief in an objective moral standard (which he does a bad job at describing). That is what he actually cares about. The conclusion (God) that stems from the idea of objective morals. And he has noticed that people without a belief in his kind of objective morals do not have any incentive to make the conclusion that there is a God. That is his real beef, although he perhaps thinks it is that subjective morals are illogical. He feels that "Darwinists" get to have the cake and eat it, too. They get to behave morally, but don't have to draw the conclusion that there needs to be a God. As a believer, he finds this unbearable, and somehow has decided that this must be a failure in logic on the part of "Darwinists".
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Ahzoh » 2013-10-03, 5:07

I thought "survival of the fittest" meant any organism that was reproductively sucessful, not necessarily the strongest/best.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-10-03, 19:13

Ahzoh wrote:I thought "survival of the fittest" meant any organism that was reproductively sucessful, not necessarily the strongest/best.


I think those are just the two sides of the same coin in most cases.

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-02-12, 3:24

IpseDixit wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:I thought "survival of the fittest" meant any organism that was reproductively sucessful, not necessarily the strongest/best.
I think those are just the two sides of the same coin in most cases.
yeah. pretty much. unless an organism can reproduce fast enough to outrun natural selection (not likely)
I didn't know what to put, evolution or theistic evolution, because I believe that God=quantum mechanics. Since quantum mechanics governs evolution, I'd say that God guided evolution (TE). However, this is definitely not most people's view of God, so I was hesitant to put that. Any suggestions?
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Yserenhart » 2014-02-12, 21:14

IpseDixit wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:I thought "survival of the fittest" meant any organism that was reproductively sucessful, not necessarily the strongest/best.


I think those are just the two sides of the same coin in most cases.

Quite often it actually happens that the best adaptations for reproductive success are not so good, or even terrible, for survivability. Consider for example, many birds have extravagant colouring and tail plumage, particularly in places like tropical rainforest. The colours make them more visible to both potential mates and predators, and it would actually be more beneficial to movement within the environment to have much shorter tails.

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Since quantum mechanics governs evolution

Quantum mechanics doesn't really work that way. It deals solely with effects on the scales of sub-atomic particles and smaller. On macroscopic scales, particularly when you get to the point of complete biological systems and evolution, quantum effects are irrelevant. At those scales, even atomic interactions become (mostly) irrelevant.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-02-14, 1:09

Yserenhart wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Since quantum mechanics governs evolution,...

Quantum mechanics doesn't really work that way. It deals solely with effects on the scales of sub-atomic particles and smaller. On macroscopic scales, particularly when you get to the point of complete biological systems and evolution, quantum effects are irrelevant. At those scales, even atomic interactions become (mostly) irrelevant.
It governs all probabiltity, my friend (I'll explain how if you want). However, even if it's only at the atomic level, evolution is driven by mutations, which occur from changes in DNA, which occur from the molecules being slightly changed, which occurs from atoms moving around or transmutating, which occur from subatomic particles moving about, which is governed by quantum mechanics.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Yserenhart » 2014-02-14, 11:28

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:It governs all probabiltity, my friend (I'll explain how if you want).

If you have completed a tertiary level qualification in physics, go ahead and explain if you so want.

However, even if it's only at the atomic level, evolution is driven by mutations,

Most mutation happens as a result of transcription/replication errors (i.e inserting an incorrect molecule rather than changing the molecule), or by insertion/deletion of DNA fragments, which again has nothing to do with changing the molecules.

which occur from changes in DNA, which occur from the molecules being slightly changed, which occurs from atoms moving around or transmutating, which occur from subatomic particles moving about, which is governed by quantum mechanics.
See?

Might as well just go a bit further then, and say that quantum mechanics is governed by mathematics. And, given that mathematics is unconstrained by physical reality, I'd say an nth dimensional being presiding over mathematics is a bit of a better god (and incidentally, a potential explanation for the god of Abrahamic religions, and other deities).
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-02-14, 23:31

Yserenhart wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:It governs all *probabiltity, my friend (I'll explain how if you want).
If you have completed a tertiary level qualification in physics, go ahead and explain if you so want.
I don't, but here's how I understand it: subatomic particles control the properties & motion of atoms. Atoms determine the properties of molecules, and atoms' movement determines the movement of molecules. Molecules' properties & movement determine the properties & movement of materials (movement to a lesser extent, but if all the molecules in something move upwards, it moves upwards). Probability is the number of successes vs. outcomes, so, for example, the probability of a floor mat moving 3ft. off the ground is the same as the probability of all its molecules moving 3ft. upward, which is the same as all the molecules' atoms moving upward, which is the same as all the subatomic paricles moving upward, which is governed by quantum mechanics.

Yserenhart wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:However, even if it's only at the atomic level, evolution is driven by mutations,
Most mutation happens as a result of transcription/replication errors (i.e inserting an incorrect molecule rather than changing the molecule), or by insertion/deletion of DNA fragments, which again has nothing to do with changing the molecules.
Sometimes that way as well. Still governed by QM, though. *see above*

Yserenhart wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:which occur from changes in DNA, which occur from the molecules being slightly changed, which occurs from atoms moving around or transmutating, which occur from subatomic particles moving about, which is governed by quantum mechanics.
See?

Might as well just go a bit further then, and say that quantum mechanics is governed by mathematics. And, given that mathematics is unconstrained by physical reality, I'd say an nth dimensional being presiding over mathematics is a bit of a better god (and incidentally, a potential explanation for the god of Abrahamic religions, and other deities).
Exactly! (also, thanks for answering my initial question)
I do have a specific reason for 9 dimensions, though. I start off with the assumption that God is ∞ everything. Then, I go through the mathematical dimensions:
1 dimension is a line.
2 is a plane.
3 is a space.
4 is time.
5 is all alternate realities possible at a given moment.
6 is the list of all possible realities from a certain set of laws of nature.
7 is the ratio of the laws of nature.
8 is the set of all possible laws of nature.
therefore, 9 is ∞ everything.
9 dimensions= ∞ everything=God.
9 dimensions=God.
God is a 9th-dimensional being.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2014-02-15, 9:06

For my part, I do not understand this dimensional stuff, but how does it translate into gods and goddesses, archangels and angels, and demigods that are begot between gods and humans? Do all of them have 9 dimensions? :?:
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-02-15, 19:48

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:For my part, I do not understand this dimensional stuff, but how does it translate into gods and goddesses, archangels and angels, and demigods that are begot between gods and humans? Do all of them have 9 dimensions? :?:

No, not all of them are ∞ everything. What dimension they are would depend on what they can do. I set up a system for that using examples I know of from Greek mythology (Since you mentioned Gods/Godesses/Demigods. Here it is:
If they feel the passage of time at all (Humans, Angels, Devils), they're 4th or 5th dimensional.
If they can control what happens anywhere on a moment-to-moment basis, they're 5th; otherwise, 4th.
These two have a lot of interplay, because many cultures have gods of certain things, which means they only control part of reality, so in the 4.5-ish range are The Greek & Roman Gods/Godesses & Titans. Demigods would be more of a 4.25-ish
If they can visit any point in the history of the Universe and change it, they're at least 6th.
If they preside over the Multiverse, they're at least 7th.
If they created the Universe (Greek Erebus, if I have my facts right), they're at least 8th.
If they're ∞ everything, they're 9th.
Anyway, I'm sorry for taking up so much space with my personal philosophies. This is supposed to be about the community, and not me, so I'll stop here if no-one has a problem with the above (^all that^). Carry on!
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