Evolution versus Creationism

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Evolution versus Creationism

I believe in Evolution
89
80%
I believe in Creationism
7
6%
I believe in Itelligent Design
4
4%
I believe in Theistic Evolutionism
11
10%
 
Total votes: 111

Halfdan
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Halfdan » 2013-06-04, 17:21

Some interesting Canadian statistics:
59% of Canadians believe that humans evolved from less advanced life forms, but 42% agree that humans and dinosaurs co-existed on earth. Only 22% believe that God created human beings in their present form within the last 10,000 years.
Source

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Marah
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Marah » 2013-06-04, 17:30

I can't believe that's true...
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-06-04, 18:18

Lur wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:But on youtube I watched some debates of American fundamentalists, and I was startled by the level of superficiality on the topic.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4


This reminds me of Candide's Pangloss...

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Lur
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Lur » 2013-06-04, 18:32

Wesse wrote:Some interesting Canadian statistics:
59% of Canadians believe that humans evolved from less advanced life forms, but 42% agree that humans and dinosaurs co-existed on earth. Only 22% believe that God created human beings in their present form within the last 10,000 years.
Source

Less advanced lifeforms? What does that mean?

A monkey is perfectly advanced for its environment. If it wasn't it wouldn't have ever existed. So did any ancestors of these monkeys.

I don't know, I don't see evolution as playing Empire Earth.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Halfdan » 2013-06-04, 18:38

Lur wrote:Less advanced lifeforms? What does that mean?

A monkey is perfectly advanced for its environment. If it wasn't it wouldn't have ever existed. So did any ancestors of these monkeys.

I don't know, I don't see evolution as playing Empire Earth.


I suppose it refers to "less advanced lifeforms" like Neanderthals, Cro-Magnon, etc.

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Varislintu
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Varislintu » 2013-06-05, 6:51

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:I've never had religion on high school, but I studied it on university and we talked a lot about atheism then. Seems just as sensible to me as teaching about creationism in biology :wink:


You mean it was a "religious" religion class (like Sunday school) and not objective or comparative?

Either way, I think you are assuming too much good faith in the creationism camp in this issue. Their strategies are pretty well documented, from inventing Intelligent Design, to the Wedge tactic to the "teach the controversy" tactic. They are not after a more balanced education, they are ultimately after proselytising, spreading the Christian religion specifically, spreading an anti-science mindset and blurring the lines concerning what counts as science and how scientifically valid different hypotheses are. I don't think they should be given in to a single inch, just because they ask nicely.
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mōdgethanc
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-06-05, 6:57

Wesse wrote:I suppose it refers to "less advanced lifeforms" like Neanderthals, Cro-Magnon, etc.
Which were not any less advanced than a monkey. Each organism has its own ecological niche; to the extent it fills it, it is as advanced as it needs to be.

Anyway, 42% of Canadians believing humans and dinosaurs lived together is shameful. Hell, any Canadians believing that is.

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-06-05, 9:20

Varislintu wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:I've never had religion on high school, but I studied it on university and we talked a lot about atheism then. Seems just as sensible to me as teaching about creationism in biology :wink:


You mean it was a "religious" religion class (like Sunday school) and not objective or comparative?

Either way, I think you are assuming too much good faith in the creationism camp in this issue. Their strategies are pretty well documented, from inventing Intelligent Design, to the Wedge tactic to the "teach the controversy" tactic. They are not after a more balanced education, they are ultimately after proselytising, spreading the Christian religion specifically, spreading an anti-science mindset and blurring the lines concerning what counts as science and how scientifically valid different hypotheses are. I don't think they should be given in to a single inch, just because they ask nicely.
I'm sorry, what do you mean? I meant to say: I have done a Master on university, 'Religion in the contemporary world', so atheism was a huge discussion point there, but apart from that I didn't have a Religion class on high school (or primary school).

Okay, but don't you think that in that case children should learn about their strategies? Because I would think so!

But of course, that only can be done in public schools, on christian schools it will go like Muisje described:
"In my school, the teacher did spend some time on the creationism theories as well, and possible arguments against evolution. But it was a christian school so that is to be expected, I suppose. He did present them in a fair comparison (or that's how I remember it anyway). My text book was very pro-evolution, I don't remember if it mentioned creationism at all, maybe one paragraph or something."
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Varislintu » 2013-06-05, 10:18

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:I'm sorry, what do you mean? I meant to say: I have done a Master on university, 'Religion in the contemporary world', so atheism was a huge discussion point there, but apart from that I didn't have a Religion class on high school (or primary school).


It was just unclear to me whether your religion class taught religion as truth or whether it was a class on religion as a phenomenon. But I understand now, that your class was the latter kind. In my opinion, if a religion class teaches religion (for example Christianity) as truth, and in it atheism would be introduced as an alternative truth, then that would be somewhat alike the situation where in biology class, creationism is taught as an alternative to scientific biology. But if the religion class is comparative and objective, then the analogy isn't quite fitting anymore, because atheism fits into its scope as one worldview among others. Whereas creationism in biology class doesn't fit in as one scientific theory among others.

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:Okay, but don't you think that in that case children should learn about their strategies? Because I would think so!


Yes, in that sense it might be appropriate to bring up creationism, or perhaps more like intelligent design (ID), in biology class, and show what science thinks of it. But that also depends on how major ID is in the surrounding society. In Finland, ID is not much of a thing (although we have plenty of creationists), so bringing it up in biology class in the lower grades would give it more publicity than it deserves. What could be done in biology class, though, is bring up how some people don't accept evolution, and what evidence of evolution there is. And how evolution works, of course, and what it means that it's a scientific theory.
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Hoogstwaarschijnlijk
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-06-05, 10:29

It was just unclear to me whether your religion class taught religion as truth or whether it was a class on religion as a phenomenon. But I understand now, that your class was the latter kind.

Yes, it was. I think on (my) university even Theology doesn't teach christianity as truth, though they assume that God exist and stuff like that :) But my study definately was the latter indeed, otherwise it wouldn't have been something one could get a Master in, I guess...

What could be done in biology class, though, is bring up how some people don't accept evolution, and what evidence of evolution there is. And how evolution works, of course, and what it means that it's a scientific theory.


Yes, I guess that's what I meant the whole time :)

We learnt about Cro-Magnon and the like in History class, by the way, I just remembered :) So we did learn something about evolution after all, just not in Biology.
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Varislintu
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Varislintu » 2013-06-05, 10:36

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:Yes, it was. I think on (my) university even Theology doesn't teach christianity as truth, though they assume that God exist and stuff like that :) But my study definately was the latter indeed, otherwise it wouldn't have been something one could get a Master in, I guess...


Heh, you're right. :D
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Levike
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Levike » 2013-06-07, 16:47

Here in Romania the situation is that many people "claim" to be religious.
I think many people here believe in religion superficially just for traditions.

If you ask them if they believe that God created humanity 95% will say yes.

But if you ask the same people if they believe what they learned at biology
then they will tell you that it's 100% true.

Here it's not really an issue.
People are like "whatever". At church they believe in God and at school in science.
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mōdgethanc
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-06-07, 17:35

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:I'm sorry, what do you mean? I meant to say: I have done a Master on university, 'Religion in the contemporary world', so atheism was a huge discussion point there, but apart from that I didn't have a Religion class on high school (or primary school).
Have done a Master's at university* :wink:

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-06-07, 18:16

mōdgethanc wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:I'm sorry, what do you mean? I meant to say: I have done a Master on university, 'Religion in the contemporary world', so atheism was a huge discussion point there, but apart from that I didn't have a Religion class on high school (or primary school).
Have done a Master's at university* :wink:

:oops: You (or someone else here) has told me this before, I should have remembered...
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby johnklepac » 2013-06-13, 15:21

Evolution.

IpseDixit

Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-06, 23:49

BTW, what's the difference between intelligent design and creationism?

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Lazar Taxon
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-07-07, 0:18

IpseDixit wrote:BTW, what's the difference between intelligent design and creationism?
As they're understood in the US, at least, creationism tends to imply a strict biblical interpretation of things, whereas intelligent design purports to be a secular scientific theory, arguing that life must have been created by an intelligent being for reasons such as irreducible complexity. Creationism, intelligent design and theistic evolution form a spectrum with some overlap.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-07, 0:29

Lazar Taxon wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:BTW, what's the difference between intelligent design and creationism?
As they're understood in the US, at least, creationism tends to imply a strict Biblical interpretation of things, whereas intelligent design purports to be a purely scientific theory, arguing that life must have been created by an intelligent being for reasons such as irreducible complexity. Creationism, intelligent design and theistic evolution form a spectrum with some overlap.


I see. Though I personally think that most of the times it is just used as a gimmick to give some sort of scientific credibility to creationism.

As a matter of fact, this distinction is rarely made in Europe.

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-08, 1:58

I see. Though I personally think that most of the times it is just used as a gimmick to give some sort of scientific credibility to creationism.
That's exactly what it is. Because teaching creationism is blatantly unconstitutional under the First Amendment, ID is a way to try to weasel creationist beliefs into the classroom while keeping plausible deniability.

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby acryllic » 2013-07-24, 15:01

So ... Evolution is Darwin's theory: survival of the fittest.

Creationism is God creating the world.

What is Intelligent Design and Theistic Evolutionism?
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