Evolution versus Creationism

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Evolution versus Creationism

I believe in Evolution
89
80%
I believe in Creationism
7
6%
I believe in Itelligent Design
4
4%
I believe in Theistic Evolutionism
11
10%
 
Total votes: 111

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby linguoboy » 2012-08-30, 16:26

BlackZ wrote:Another thing: Why so many religious people are afraid of reading and/or explaining the Theory of Evolution decently? If it's "false" as they claim, it shouldn't scare or offend them that much...

Penn Jillette always says if you want to make someone an atheist, tell them to read the Bible. (The WHOLE Bible, not just selected parts.) If evolution were as flawed as Christianity, then by the same logic reading Origin of the species should make people Evangelists. Except it never seems to work that way...
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Kenny » 2012-08-30, 16:28

A pretty good video I just came across explaining all the BS logical fallacies you get with creationists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXMKPvWqgYk

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Sol Invictus » 2012-08-31, 6:34

The strangest thing is that I don't remember having such biology lesson, it's just fact of life mentioned here and there. Maybe having a seperate topic one can skip goes to show that whoever authored that lesson also did so just because they're supposed to and you can skip?

Acctualy I looked into this topic, because I found out there is the golden crockoduck award for biggest creationist BS, after waching some videos I suppose you can't really say they don't learn more about the theory and apparently it isn't the only thing they don't like in modern science (seems Big bang is a hit too), it's just that for some reason they don't get it. Confirmation bias probably.

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby DissidentRage » 2012-09-11, 21:27

имен wrote:
ling wrote:Mutation, gene transfer, sexual gene mixing, and other mechanisms.

Yes, these certainly are a source, but IMO they're not enough, since they give random mix. Look, if the environment does affect the DNA, then things become much more plausible.


Evolution is friggin' slow. It doesn't happen over a few generations. It takes thousands of years for a significant change to occur.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Varislintu » 2012-10-03, 9:50

There's a lot of money involved in the creationism hoax. Many parts of Europe (not by any means all, though) are still an untapped market for all the literature and other material that can be sold under the label of creationism. Apart from the consumer goods, there's also the people that want to sell you the ideological bubble, i.e. who promise to protect you from having to face science if you only vote for them. Unfortunately, human societies seem to consist to a great part of people who are drawn to this kind of stuff. With powerful lobbying and marketing, they will embrace creationism and possibly the persecution mentality that is often sold with it, especially if they have never seen it wrapped in such shiny paper before, or argued for so vehemently.

There's a statistic I've seen that says that only 60% of Finns accept evolution. So far, that other 40%, which I assume is largely creationist in some way or other (or merely apathetic or uninformed), is a kind of dormant opinion pool. I'm afraid, though, that if and when that fancily wrapped, aggressive American style creationism arrives here properly, some of them will start to feel they need to have more of an influence in how our society and education system is constructed. And then we will actually have to defend evolution's place in biology class, here too.

People making money off of creationism need to make creationism main stream, just like for example anti-vaxxers need to make it mainstream not to vaccinate your children. Once it's mainstream enough it really doesn't matter how crazy it is, it'll spread anyway.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-06-03, 19:50

Here in Italy this is not even a debate quite honestly. Even the Catholic Church somehow accepts evolution (maybe they don't want to repeat the same mistakes they made with Galilei :-) ). But on youtube I watched some debates of American fundamentalists, and I was startled by the level of superficiality on the topic.

For instance I watched a video in which this guy says that evolution is wrong because life cannot just create out of non-living matter with the help of energy. Otherwise we would have a lot of living creatures in our peanut butter jars (that are exposed to light, hence energy), and he was totally serious whilst saying that! What a pity that the guy seems to ignore, amongst many other things, that Darwin's theory is not about the creation of life :-)

Another debate which is either disturbing or hilarious (depending on your standpoint) is this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AS6rQtiEh8

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Lur » 2013-06-04, 8:14

IpseDixit wrote:But on youtube I watched some debates of American fundamentalists, and I was startled by the level of superficiality on the topic.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Varislintu » 2013-06-04, 8:26

Here a Member of Parliament from the The Finns party apparently recently suggested that creationism could be taught in biology class (!) in order to provide all sides of the issue or something like that. As I feared, this ideology is creeping in.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-06-04, 9:16

Varislintu wrote:Here a Member of Parliament from the The Finns party apparently recently suggested that creationism could be taught in biology class (!) in order to provide all sides of the issue or something like that. As I feared, this ideology is creeping in.

Why would that be such a weird idea?

I can't remember to have been taught neither evolution or creationism, but to me it seems logical that when you have a class about evolution you also mention that lots of people don't believe in it because they believe in creationism. When it's a public school this will be taught differently than on a christian school, I suppose, and maybe when there are seperate lessons for religion you could use those lessons to explain creationism.


[edit] I tried to find any numbers for the Netherlands and apparently nearly 20% thinks the evolution theory is false.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Varislintu » 2013-06-04, 9:27

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:
Varislintu wrote:Here a Member of Parliament from the The Finns party apparently recently suggested that creationism could be taught in biology class (!) in order to provide all sides of the issue or something like that. As I feared, this ideology is creeping in.

Why would that be such a weird idea?


Because creationism isn't science, and biology class is a science class. Creationism can be mentioned in religious class, or maybe history class if that's where comparative religion is taught.

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:I can't remember to have been taught neither evolution


Really? How is that possible? That's a pretty major aspect of biology as a subject. :para:
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-06-04, 9:39

Varislintu wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:
Varislintu wrote:Here a Member of Parliament from the The Finns party apparently recently suggested that creationism could be taught in biology class (!) in order to provide all sides of the issue or something like that. As I feared, this ideology is creeping in.

Why would that be such a weird idea?


Because creationism isn't science, and biology class is a science class. Creationism can be mentioned in religious class, or maybe history class if that's where comparative religion is taught.

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:I can't remember to have been taught neither evolution


Really? How is that possible? That's a pretty major aspect of biology as a subject. :para:


I wasn't taught comparative religion either. Well, everyone knows that in Finland the education system is much better than in the Netherlands (or so they write in the newspaper every day...) :wink:

But creationism and evolutionism are related to each other, I mean, people compare them a lot, they say quite often they believe in one or another and are discussed together, just like we're doing here, then it's not that strange to mention them both in the same class, also when it's a 'science class'. Another example: homosexuality was mentioned in biology class, and how society is handling that, that's also not purely science, but it does belong to biology, right?

I didn't do final exams in biology btw, maybe people with Biology 2 were taught about evolution, I don't know, all I got was stuff about cells and how you could predict if someone is left-handed and why trees are green and the pavlov-theory. At least, that's all I remember :)
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Lur » 2013-06-04, 9:47

Varislintu wrote:Really? How is that possible? That's a pretty major aspect of biology as a subject. :para:

It's at the heart of most biology.

Biology in highchool could be taught in three branches:
-Evolution. Basic gateway to ecology, genetics, philogeny, botanics, zoology, etc.
-inner workings of cells and tissues. Gateway to biochemistry, photosyntesis, etc. Hypothesis on the origin of life and so on. How DNA and RNA work and so on. Stuff like that.
-Ecology.

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that they should explain evolution in high school Biology, and better than they do in most places. It's not that easy to understand and most people have really weird ideas about evolution for that reason.

But yeah, explaining in a Biology class that some people don't believe in evolution is like explaining in a Physics class that some people don't believe in... whatever makes Physics make sense.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-06-04, 9:59

Lur wrote:
Varislintu wrote:Really? How is that possible? That's a pretty major aspect of biology as a subject. :para:

It's at the heart of most biology.

Biology in highchool could be taught in three branches:
-Evolution. Basic gateway to ecology, genetics, philogeny, botanics, zoology, etc.
-inner workings of cells and tissues. Gateway to biochemistry, photosyntesis, etc. Hypothesis on the origin of life and so on. How DNA and RNA work and so on. Stuff like that.
-Ecology.

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that they should explain evolution in high school Biology, and better than they do in most places. It's not that easy to understand and most people have really weird ideas about evolution for that reason.

But yeah, explaining in a Biology class that some people don't believe in evolution is like explaining in a Physics class that some people don't believe in... whatever makes Physics make sense.


Okay, so we only/mostly got the second branche then :)

Oh, I do think that it should be explained in high school, and it should be explained well, because indeed, it's not that easy to understand. But I also think that when 20% of the people wouldn't believe in something that normally is taught in Physics, then that should be mentioned as well. School isn't just about explaining sciences, it's mostly preparing for functioning in society. Then it's really important to know how people think, what they believe and why, so that people can form their own opinions.


[edit] Or maybe not. Suddenly I got reminded of my post in the thread about the school discussion: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=40085#p884202
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Car » 2013-06-04, 10:18

I just searched for the situation for my federal state and found out that there are Luthern schools (not run by the Lutheran church or linked to them) which want to open up to creationism and the article also mentions that it's getting more common to push it into schools. All kind of schools have to stick to the curriculum which is based on evolution and evolution only. Even the Lutheran church distanced itself from that.

One source:
http://aktuell.evangelisch.de/artikel/8 ... ationismus

Unfortunately, one of the surveys for Germany, Austria and Switzerland I could find was done by pro-creationist groups and the other one, more representative, from 2005. More recent, neutral data would be nice.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Muisje » 2013-06-04, 11:02

To add to Hoogstwaarschijnlijk, evolution definitely is a part of the biology 2 curriculum. I don't remember any mention of the origin of the earth or anything like that, just the mechanisms of evolution, how species can change in changing environments or when groups get separated, survival of the fittest, etcetera.. I remember something about white butterflies who turned black (as a species) when the birch trees they sat on turned black (due to pollution). And something about parts of a cell originating as bacteria (like the mitochondrium). I actually remember more than I thought I did. :)

In my school, the teacher did spend some time on the creationism theories as well, and possible arguments against evolution. But it was a christian school so that is to be expected, I suppose. He did present them in a fair comparison (or that's how I remember it anyway). My text book was very pro-evolution, I don't remember if it mentioned creationism at all, maybe one paragraph or something.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-06-04, 12:09

We weren't taught about atheism in religion class, so why teach about creationism in science class?

Note I said teach about. Maybe we could devote half a lesson to it one day; teaching in-depth what creationists believe and their arguments would be a huge waste of time.

I hear from a lot of people here that their high school biology classes didn't cover the theory of evolution well. I have to agree with them: we did Mendelian genetics, trophic pyramids and Linnean taxonomy but I don't remember anyone ever mentioning Darwin or evolution at all except maybe in passing.

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-06-04, 12:47

mōdgethanc wrote:We weren't taught about atheism in religion class, so why teach about creationism in science class?

I've never had religion on high school, but I studied it on university and we talked a lot about atheism then. Seems just as sensible to me as teaching about creationism in biology :wink:

Muisje wrote:(...) how species can change in changing environments or when groups get separated (...)


We might actually have learnt a bit about that indeed. I'm not so sure, most of these things I have read after high school (and even after university) in the bird science magazine I read, for example that blackbirds in cities now use different songs than the blackbirds at the countryside. I know this counts as evolution as well but for some reason I immediately think about human beings being related to monkeys and all that, because well, the blackbird example and your butterfly example, that's not something anyone would disagree with, it's so visible and clear.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Kenny » 2013-06-04, 13:57

But how could you teach about creationism in biology class when it has zero basis in reality?! No evidence to back it up, nothing, it's a fairy tale.
It's like teaching about alchemy in chemistry class or astrology in physics.

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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby Itikar » 2013-06-04, 14:55

IpseDixit wrote:Here in Italy this is not even a debate quite honestly. Even the Catholic Church somehow accepts evolution (maybe they don't want to repeat the same mistakes they made with Galilei :-) ). But on youtube I watched some debates of American fundamentalists, and I was startled by the level of superficiality on the topic.

I graduated from a Catholic high school which by the way belonged to the city bishopry.
In biology class creationism was named once or twice as joke.
They were far more worried about bioethics and epistemology and they cared to present us with as much points of view as they could find.

At university a Professor who had worked in England for several years named creationism once more, and he confessed that he didn't see any point where the theory of evolution was in conflict with Christianity. By the way I agree with him and I write this as a believer.

About atheism I remember it was discussed several times during religion and philosohy classes and always with respect, even by the priests themselves.
Once a priest pointed out there was quite a number of works made by atheists that were far better than others made by belivers in explaining and understanding Christian values and morality.
The same priest used also De Andrè's song "Il testamento di Tito" to explain us the meaning of the ten commandments.
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Re: Evolution versus Creationism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-06-04, 15:48

Kenny wrote:But how could you teach about creationism in biology class when it has zero basis in reality?! No evidence to back it up, nothing, it's a fairy tale.
It's like teaching about alchemy in chemistry class or astrology in physics.
I can see teaching those in a historical sense, like "this is what people used to believe before they realized they were fucking retarded and gave up trying to convince themselves they were true". We haven't reached that point with creationism yet, but it's only a matter of when, not if.

I remembering reading about the heliocentric universe and Aristotlelian physics in my science books as a kid (the ones I read for fun, not textbooks, but why not? They teach valuable lessons about the scientific method and the nature of truth).


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