Libya's brighter future (?)

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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Chekhov » 2011-09-24, 13:53

Oil could have been one cause of both wars. I don't think it was the primary concern, though. Iraq, IMHO, was about getting rid of a long-time foe of the West. No hidden motives needed.
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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Saim » 2011-09-25, 1:42

Babelfish wrote:it's just kind of ironic to me that people opposing to the war on Iraq loudly blamed the U.S. for doing it only for the oil, while now this argument doesn't seem to come up at all.

Except, it does. Read anything Chomsky or any uncompromising leftist has written in the last few months.

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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Chekhov » 2011-09-25, 4:25

It's not like we need to take them seriously, though. The far left always finds an excuse to call every war the West is involved in an imperialist crusade for greater power and resources.
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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-09-25, 5:59

The boost to resources vary, but the power part is always a sure thing. When you intervene with the rest of world, you're projecting your power onto it.
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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Hannahanneke » 2011-09-25, 16:23

Tenebrarum wrote:The boost to resources vary, but the power part is always a sure thing. When you intervene with the rest of world, you're projecting your power onto it.

I couldn't agree more with this! Why else would you invade a foreign country...

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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Chekhov » 2011-09-25, 16:27

Yeah, we hope the future GoL will be a Western ally. So what? We don't want a madman who tortures his own people and exports terrorism to be in power; what a heinous action to get rid of him!
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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-09-25, 16:48

Chekhov wrote:Yeah, we hope the future GoL will be a Western ally. So what? We don't want a madman who tortures his own people and exports terrorism to be in power; what a heinous action to get rid of him!

Don't make me laugh. You know very well that Ghaddafi could have gotten away with pretty much everything if only he had been a Western ally. The West has no problems supporting random dictators around the world, while turning a blind eye on all of their human rights violations. From Pinochet to Moubarak, King Hamad and King Abdullah.

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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Chekhov » 2011-09-25, 16:53

Yeah, we loved Gaddafi so much that we bombed his compound and tried to kill him. When Gaddafi murdered American servicemen abroad, he sort of crossed a line.

(And I think you mean everyone has a bad habit of coddling dictators, not just the big bad imperialist wolf.)
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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-09-25, 17:17

Chekhov wrote:(And I think you mean everyone has a bad habit of coddling dictators, not just the big bad imperialist wolf.)

You keep bringing that up. Yes, I know that other world powers (China and Russia) are just as bad and even worse! That doesn't make NATO good, it just makes it the lesser evil. And right now, we are talking about NATO, and not about everyone.

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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Chekhov » 2011-09-25, 17:26

Yeah, because those countries are worse. They are notorious human abusers; we aren't. In Libya we sided with the rebels from the get-go; they sided with Gaddafi unil it became apparent he had lost. We aren't perfect, but we're a damn sight better than Putin & Co.
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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-09-25, 17:50

Chekhov wrote:Yeah, because those countries are worse. They are notorious human abusers; we aren't. In Libya we sided with the rebels from the get-go; they sided with Gaddafi unil it became apparent he had lost. We aren't perfect, but we're a damn sight better than Putin & Co.

Some NATO countries weren't as quick to side with the rebels, truth be told. Another thing that would be smart to do is to stop arming potential insane, violent, ruthless dictators, and not confronting them only AFTER you have given or sold them weapons.

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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Chekhov » 2011-09-25, 17:56

Some NATO countries weren't as quick to side with the rebels, truth be told.
Because if we pick sides, we just get accused of being meddling imperialists again! That's why Libya was limited to an air war; if we'd put boots on the ground there'd just have been even more unwarranted comparisons to Iraq.
Another thing that would be smart to do is to stop arming potential insane, violent, ruthless dictators, and not confronting them only AFTER you have given or sold them weapons.
Probably. It would also help if they stop lying and making false promises, though, and that we stop believing them.
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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-09-25, 17:56

"Oh our politico-military machinations are so much better than those dictatorships. Unlike them, we aren't human right abusers, nuh-uh. Except that we are buds with them and use them as sound-proof <rendition> centers, at least until they start turning on us."
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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Chekhov » 2011-09-25, 18:02

Yeah that totally makes us morally equivalent to genocidaires and sponsors of state terrorism. How did we miss that one? And nobody in the West opposes such practices; that would be indeed unthinkable, because there's no freedom of speech or assembly here.
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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-09-25, 21:34

Chekhov wrote:Yeah that totally makes us morally equivalent to genocidaires and sponsors of state terrorism. How did we miss that one? And nobody in the West opposes such practices; that would be indeed unthinkable, because there's no freedom of speech or assembly here.

Supporting them makes you as bad as them.
BTW You can hardly take the moral high-ground when it comes to states supporting terrorists. May I remind you that USA/NATO supported terrorists in the Afghan Civil War, and also supported KLA while it was still considered a terrorist group by most UN and NATO countries.

Chekhov wrote:
Some NATO countries weren't as quick to side with the rebels, truth be told.
Because if we pick sides, we just get accused of being meddling imperialists again! That's why Libya was limited to an air war; if we'd put boots on the ground there'd just have been even more unwarranted comparisons to Iraq.

No, it's because Italy was a big trading partner of Libya and in case the rebellion failed they would have lost cheap oil.

Chekhov wrote:
Another thing that would be smart to do is to stop arming potential insane, violent, ruthless dictators, and not confronting them only AFTER you have given or sold them weapons.
Probably. It would also help if they stop lying and making false promises, though, and that we stop believing them.

You do know that EU was the largest supplier of weapons to Gadhafi after 2004. How stupid could you be to believe him after all he's done? That false promises thing is bullshit and you know it, the only reason you ''believed'' him is because he gave you a lot of money.

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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Oleksij » 2011-09-25, 22:12

Rumpetroll wrote:Supporting them makes you as bad as them.

No. Just more clever.

Also, with all honesty, I hate this Serbian butthurt about the 90's and Yugoslavia's collapse. It's like Putinist Russia blaming the rest of the world for the fact that the Soviet Union collapsed.

You do know that EU was the largest supplier of weapons to Gadhafi after 2004.

That makes very little difference in terms of geopolitics, if any. Great Britain was a major supplier of arms to Argentina up until the Falklands war, and the Soviet Union was a major food exporter for Nazi Germany in the 30's and after, including during the initial stages of WWII, right before Operation Barbarossa.

I don't understand what is so complex about modern geopolitics - you either become at least a token capitalist democracy and get to join the West in bombing and invading lesser countries, or you become one of those countries.
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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Chekhov » 2011-09-25, 22:23

Supporting them makes you as bad as them.
Guilt by association? Okay.

We wanted Gaddafi to stop seeking WMD. I don't really expect you to understand how Realpolitik works; for you it wouldn't matter because of your raging hate-boner for NATO and jealousy of the West. See:
I hate this Serbian butthurt about the 90's and Yugoslavia's collapse. It's like Putinist Russia blaming the rest of the world for the fact that the Soviet Union collapsed.
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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-09-25, 22:45

We wanted Gaddafi to stop seeking WMD. I don't really expect you to understand how Realpolitik works; for you it wouldn't matter because of your raging hate-boner for NATO and jealousy of the West. See:

Ad hominem? There is really no need for that. That was insulting, I thought we could have honest and fair arguments.

Guilt by association? Okay.

No, it's not. If you enable someone to commit a crime, while you know that he will most likely do that, you are an accomplice in that crime, right?

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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-09-25, 22:51

Oleksij wrote:
You do know that EU was the largest supplier of weapons to Gadhafi after 2004.

That makes very little difference in terms of geopolitics, if any. Great Britain was a major supplier of arms to Argentina up until the Falklands war, and the Soviet Union was a major food exporter for Nazi Germany in the 30's and after, including during the initial stages of WWII, right before Operation Barbarossa.
Soviet Union and Nazi Germany don't claim moral superiority that NATO claims.

Oleksij wrote:I don't understand what is so complex about modern geopolitics - you either become at least a token capitalist democracy and get to join the West in bombing and invading lesser countries, or you become one of those countries.

It is as evil as it is simple.

EDIT: By the way, you guys seem to think I hate NATO because I'm Serbian. It's not that, I hate everyone who has power and authority, especially if they force their power onto others. I hate the Roman Empire and the Spanish Empire and Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union and each and every world power in history, because they have all bullied and taken advantage or used other, weaker countries for their own benefit.
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Re: Libya's brighter future (?)

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-09-25, 23:02

Chekhov wrote:We wanted Gaddafi to stop seeking WMD.
Who are this "we" here? That's just what you think.

Rumpetroll wrote:
I don't really expect you to understand how Realpolitik works; for you it wouldn't matter because of your raging hate-boner for NATO and jealousy of the West. See:

Ad hominem? There is really no need for that. That was insulting, I thought we could have honest and fair arguments.

I'm afraid you can't have fair arguments with Chekhov on this subject, for he has shown his Western superiority complex quite clearly.

And yeah Rump, that's my viewpoint too. Every major power is ruthless, manipulative and deceitful - they need to be, it's requisite. To believe otherwise is simply delusional. Some just go more overboard than others. So there's no point contrasting a "good" USA or NATO with a "bad" China or Russia. Governments are groups of people with power, and they're not run by the public - they run themselves, to serve their own interest. Western govts are just less likely to resort to dirty tactics than China and Russia because they have more at stake, like their subjects at home have a stronger collective voice, for a start. At their core, they're all selfish human beings with a passion of making things go the way they want, in their own country and the world at large. That's how they become politicians anyway.

That is not to say smaller countries don't behave in the same way, of course.
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