Morality.

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Oleksij
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Re: Morality.

Postby Oleksij » 2011-07-21, 20:50

linguoboy wrote:
Oleksij wrote:
loqu wrote:Yes, but when divorce knocks at your door those verbal promises jump out of the window.

Only if one is an immoral bastard.

Isn't that exactly the sort of person you should be divorcing?

It's a kind of person one shouldn't get together with, in the first place.
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Re: Morality.

Postby Oleksij » 2011-07-21, 20:51

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
Oleksij wrote:Only if one is an immoral bastard.

Just look at real cases, and you will find a lot of examples of non-exemplary persons. No one is to be trusted. :|

There are long-lasting couples, where both partners act benevolent to each other throughout, even if they separate, but such cases aren't many, unfortunately.
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Re: Morality.

Postby linguoboy » 2011-07-21, 21:00

Oleksij wrote:It's a kind of person one shouldn't get together with, in the first place.

And, in a perfect world, everyone would be psychic and know this at the point they first met them. But we aren't living in a perfect world, we're living in one where immoral bastards can look just like honest gems--indeed, their survival is predicated on it.

In fact, it's immoral bastards who have the most to gain by playing the why-do-you-need-it-in-writing-don't-you-trust-me? card whenever they enter into agreements. And I don't just mean matrimony; plenty of business partnerships have ended in disaster for one of the members because the other convinced him that an oral agreement was enough and then split with the assets.
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Re: Morality.

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-07-21, 21:16

Oleksij...have you ever...met a person before?
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Re: Morality.

Postby Oleksij » 2011-07-21, 21:30

ILuvEire wrote:Oleksij...have you ever...met a person before?

Not that many. :P


linguoboy wrote:And, in a perfect world, everyone would be psychic and know this at the point they first met them. But we aren't living in a perfect world, we're living in one where immoral bastards can look just like honest gems--indeed, their survival is predicated on it.

In fact, it's immoral bastards who have the most to gain by playing the why-do-you-need-it-in-writing-don't-you-trust-me? card whenever they enter into agreements. And I don't just mean matrimony; plenty of business partnerships have ended in disaster for one of the members because the other convinced him that an oral agreement was enough and then split with the assets.

Oh really.

I'm playing idealistic here, just in case people didn't notice.
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Re: Morality

Postby Aurinĭa » 2011-07-21, 23:22

Oleksij wrote:Marriage is a grave infringement of individuality and personal freedom, in essence, it is a legalised form of prostitution.. behind the smokescreen of 'love' and 'commitment'.
Just a question: so it's still okay to get married if you believe prostitution should be legalised?

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Re: Morality

Postby Oleksij » 2011-07-21, 23:27

melan wrote:
Oleksij wrote:Marriage is a grave infringement of individuality and personal freedom, in essence, it is a legalised form of prostitution.. behind the smokescreen of 'love' and 'commitment'.
Just a question: so it's still okay to get married if you believe prostitution should be legalised?

I ponder.
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...on second thought, well, since marriage is legal, I don't see why prostitution shouldn't be.
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Re: Morality

Postby Aurinĭa » 2011-07-21, 23:39

Oleksij wrote:
melan wrote:
Oleksij wrote:Marriage is a grave infringement of individuality and personal freedom, in essence, it is a legalised form of prostitution.. behind the smokescreen of 'love' and 'commitment'.
Just a question: so it's still okay to get married if you believe prostitution should be legalised?

I ponder.

...on second thought, well, since marriage is legal, I don't see why prostitution shouldn't be.
The question wasn't whether prostitution should be legalised, I'm in favour of that. And I think there are better arguments for it than 'marriage is legal'.

Prostitution is only about sex, marriage is about much more - as already said, not in the last place about legal rights.

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Re: Morality.

Postby Chekhov » 2011-07-22, 0:29

I'm playing idealistic here, just in case people didn't notice.

Seems to me you're trying to be a cynic but failing.
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Re: Morality.

Postby Ghoti » 2011-07-23, 11:36

It's not immoral in a moment of high emotions to renege on something you've said. I know it's morally wrong to start an act of aggression against an innocent person, however if you put the person who programmed my computer in front of me just after my computer decides to turn itself off in the middle of me doing something, then my emotions will take over from my morals. Probably.

Instead, marriage and divorce should be like getting a sex change. You should have to live together for a year before making the decision and likewise you should have to be separated for a year before getting divorced. I think the benefit of a cooling period would be that you probably wouldn't hate the other person so much that you don't want to screw them (figuratively speaking more than literally).

Also I think it's not just arranged marriages which are wrong. If you live in a society were it's normal to marry and where there's a kind of stigma attached to not getting married, then you're still trapped whether you realise it or not.

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Re: Morality.

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2011-07-28, 9:09

Ghoti wrote:Instead, marriage and divorce should be like getting a sex change. You should have to live together for a year before making the decision and likewise you should have to be separated for a year before getting divorced. I think the benefit of a cooling period would be that you probably wouldn't hate the other person so much that you don't want to screw them (figuratively speaking more than literally).

While I do think that some people divorce too fast, I don't think this could be made into a rule. It's a nice advice, but you can't say to the woman who after five years has found the courage to say to her husband who beats her each day: 'you're obliged to live with him another year', while it would be better to live seperate for a while and look if something can be fixed with therapy. But you probably meant something similar.
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Re: Morality.

Postby Ghoti » 2011-07-28, 10:04

I meant that the couple should be separated for a year, that they wouldn't be living together. But yes you're right, if a husband is beating his wife or anything like that then obviously this is an exception. And actually I think a lot of people marry too quickly. Having to wait a year before getting married and binding yourself to someone you should be sure you can live with that person, imo that would be better than making people wait a year to divorce. I think there was an old celtic ceremony (or some old English peoples) where people got married for a year and then could come back and renew it after a year or just go their separate ways.
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Re: Morality.

Postby Johanna » 2011-07-28, 11:22

Ghoti wrote:And actually I think a lot of people marry too quickly. Having to wait a year before getting married and binding yourself to someone you should be sure you can live with that person, imo that would be better than making people wait a year to divorce.

Swedes usually marry after they've lived together for several years, and often they have a couple of kids before too. We still have the same divorce rates as the rest of Western Europe, so I doubt that would help.

I've read that most couples break up after 3 years or so, soon after they've got their first baby, or when the kids have grown up, but I don't know how accurate those sources are. It sounds plausible though, 3 years is when the relationship really has become more every-day life and isn't exiting in itself anymore but instead needs some work to be so, when the first kid arrives the relationship takes the back seat to the baby for a while, which many can have problems coping with, and when the kids have grown up you can start concentrating on yourselves again for real, and many couples discover that they have grown apart and that the spark just isn't there anymore.

That being said, living together before getting married is never a bad thing :) Just don't expect divorce rates to automatically drop.
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Re: Morality.

Postby hlysnan » 2011-07-28, 11:47

Johanna wrote:I've read that most couples break up after 3 years or so, soon after they've got their first baby, or when the kids have grown up, but I don't know how accurate those sources are. It sounds plausible though, 3 years is when the relationship really has become more every-day life and isn't exiting in itself anymore but instead needs some work to be so, when the first kid arrives the relationship takes the back seat to the baby for a while, which many can have problems coping with, and when the kids have grown up you can start concentrating on yourselves again for real, and many couples discover that they have grown apart and that the spark just isn't there anymore.


I think another reason for the last point is that they had already determined that they do not see a relationship continuing in the future, but they want to stay together for the children.

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Re: Morality.

Postby Johanna » 2011-07-28, 12:37

hlysnan wrote:I think another reason for the last point is that they had already determined that they do not see a relationship continuing in the future, but they want to stay together for the children.

Sometimes yes, but it's not that common here. There's no stigma attached to having divorced parents, or being a divorced parent here, and it's often stressed that if you fight a lot, or it shows in other ways that don't like each other that much anymore, you're more likely to hurt your kids than if you just split up.

Of course, if you're still good friends it might work, but sooner or later it usually brings some tension, like if one of you meets someone new.
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Re: Morality

Postby MillMaths » 2011-11-27, 23:55

Oleksij wrote:I still don't understand the benefits of shared property through marriage - is it not better to actually leave properties to individual ownership, and, in case of sale, split the money by oral agreement? It takes a certain amount of decency to be able to do that, but it's better than going through all the bureaucracy in case of shared ownership.

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Re: Morality.

Postby Chekhov » 2011-11-28, 1:03

My, Sophie, I didn't know you were so kinky!
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Re: Morality.

Postby Lada » 2011-11-28, 10:50

Johanna wrote:3 years is when the relationship really has become more every-day life and isn't exiting in itself anymore but instead needs some work to be so,

It's not "some work", it's a hard everyday work of building a family that must be done from the very beginning even before marriage. We are all different even if we are in love with each other, but as routine uncovers all the "negative" sides of your partner's character and some other features that you didn't notice before, one need to decide if you really love your partner and if you really want a family.

IMHO most part of the divorces happens because people are not ready for serious, deep and meaningful relationship (yeah, they quickly forget about love). Partly because they are still big kids, partly because they don't want all this responsibility (especially when it comes to children). Very few people actually think about every-day life and its consequences and about their role in the family that is not as simple as in sex.

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Re: Morality.

Postby BezierCurve » 2011-11-28, 13:52

Yet there comes a time when washing dishes and cooking dinner seems not as arduous a task as that spontaneous, wild sex anymore. And then you're on the other side of your partnership. So, enjoy being young and irrresponsible as long as you can.
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Re: Morality.

Postby TeneReef » 2011-11-29, 23:31

There are many married men on Gayromeo, ya know? (Married to a woman). :mrgreen:
I guess sleeping with boys is tolerated, like in ancient Greece. :P
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