Morality.

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Polonus
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Morality.

Postby Polonus » 2011-07-19, 21:13

As there are users of this forum who come from different cultures and religions, with different social backrounds, both religious people and atheists, agnostics and what not.... I want you to help me solve one moral problem. But first you have to read a short story which is as follows;

John and Mary got married at the age of 25. Their marriage was very happy. Mary gave birth to a child but after 4 years something terrible happened; Mary had a car accident and a result of which she became a disabled person, depressed, paralysed, ugly, completly asexual, unaware of what was going around her. John took care of her and cared about her as much as he could. Time went by and John met his old school friend Susan. Susan felt sorry for him and even proposed to help him take care of his sick wife. And she did so. After a time John noticed that his relation with Susan is more than just pure friendship. They landed up in bed. John betrayed his wife. Did he? He felt very uneasy about this, having in mind; "I promise....... till death us do part" . I promise, I promise....
But what could he do? He was 31, the life was before him. Onanism? and waiting for his wife's death?


What piece of advice would you give to John? Should he have any remorses?
I wonder.

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linguoboy
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Re: Morality.

Postby linguoboy » 2011-07-19, 21:40

Polonus wrote:Mary had a car accident and a result of which she became a disabled person, depressed, paralysed, ugly, completly asexual, unaware of what was going around her.

What does "unaware" mean here? "In compos mentis but apathetic" or did you have something else in mind? It makes a great deal of difference for your little morality play whether or not John could've asked Mary for her informed consent before having sex with someone else.
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Polonus
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Re: Morality.

Postby Polonus » 2011-07-19, 21:48

linguoboy wrote:What does "unaware" mean here?


Don't pretend you don't understand. It means what it means. The question is of John' s attitude. Was he allowed to betray his legal wife? What about morality?

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loqu
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Re: Morality.

Postby loqu » 2011-07-19, 22:01

Answer linguoboy's question. It makes a huge difference.
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linguoboy
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Re: Morality.

Postby linguoboy » 2011-07-19, 22:04

Polonus wrote:
linguoboy wrote:What does "unaware" mean here?

Don't pretend you don't understand.

I'm not "pretending".

Polonus wrote:It means what it means.

I.e. "having no knowledge of a situation or fact". But this doesn't tell us why she "had no knowledge", which is why I asked. Because such considerations are vital to both morality and legality. If we take your statement literally, it implies that she is comatose or otherwise mentally void. But if that's what you meant, why didn't you just say so?

I can't tell what your purpose is here. You don't seem to be trying to have an honest discussion of morality.
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Polonus
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Re: Morality.

Postby Polonus » 2011-07-19, 22:12

linguoboy wrote:I can't tell what your purpose is here. You don't seem to be trying to have an honest discussion of morality.


OK. I am trying to. Let me correct myself. Mary is not in a coma. She knows what's going around her. She is aware of her situtation and she knows how sick she is.
Well, then......?

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Hunef
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Re: Morality.

Postby Hunef » 2011-07-19, 22:19

John's a bastard, that's my verdict. He should've dumped his wife first, then he could've had fun with other women.

Polonus wrote:[i][...] But what could he do? He was 31, the life was before him. Onanism? [...]
:para:
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Kasuya
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Re: Morality.

Postby Kasuya » 2011-07-19, 22:28

I think it's okay for him to do stuff discretely with other women. But he shouldn't let it interfere with him taking care of his family, which is his number one responsibility.

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BezierCurve
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Re: Morality.

Postby BezierCurve » 2011-07-19, 23:44

If he needs that piece of advice... We can only try to understand him and his situation. We can't really advise him. It's all up to him and his conscience. There's no "should" or "shouldn't" from my point of view.
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Re: Morality

Postby MillMaths » 2011-07-20, 8:44

Polonus wrote:What piece of advice would you give to John? Should he have any remorses?
I wonder.

I'm not sure what to say to John but I can give a little advice to Mary by placing myself in her shoes. (It's only fair to view both sides of the same coin.) If I were Mary in that situation, no longer able to satisfy the sexual needs of my partner, I should give my consent to his going and seeing his mistress, much as I might feel hurt by it. After all, John still had a life to live, and if I truly loved him, it would be selfish of me to let my disability hold him back. Nevertheless I would still insist that he continue to look after me and our family – this must still be a priority with him, as Kasuya said.

NB: Before I posted this, I read your post in the "Crucifixes" thread in which you declared that your intention to "quit this forum for good". It doesn't matter if you don't read this. I still want to post it anyway.

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Re: Morality.

Postby Oleksij » 2011-07-20, 11:20

I personally don't see marriage as something moral in the first place, rather the opposite. How is it 'moral' to legally bind two people by an agreement, which uses the terms 'forever' and 'for all eternity', when we all know humans are instinctive creatures, who on average, have more than one romantic/sexual partner throughout their lives, and who, moreover, obviously don't live or even feel 'forever'?
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Jurgen Wullenwever
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Re: Morality

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-07-20, 13:28

Sophie wrote:
Polonus wrote:What piece of advice would you give to John? Should he have any remorses?
I wonder.

I'm not sure what to say to John but I can give a little advice to Mary by placing myself in her shoes. (It's only fair to view both sides of the same coin.) If I were Mary in that situation, no longer able to satisfy the sexual needs of my partner, I should give my consent to his going and seeing his mistress, much as I might feel hurt by it. After all, John still had a life to live, and if I truly loved him, it would be selfish of me to let my disability hold him back. Nevertheless I would still insist that he continue to look after me and our family – this must still be a priority with him, as Kasuya said.

NB: Before I posted this, I read your post in the "Crucifixes" thread in which you declared that your intention to "quit this forum for good". It doesn't matter if you don't read this. I still want to post it anyway.


I get those New Testament flashes here. According to this John (the Baptist) left Mary for Salome, but she got tired of him and had him decapitated. Mary (Magdalene) later took in with Jesus, instead, who unfortunately was executed a short while later. :(
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Hoogstwaarschijnlijk
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Re: Morality.

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2011-07-20, 13:33

Oleksij wrote:I personally don't see marriage as something moral in the first place, rather the opposite. How is it 'moral' to legally bind two people by an agreement, which uses the terms 'forever' and 'for all eternity', when we all know humans are instinctive creatures, who on average, have more than one romantic/sexual partner throughout their lives, and who, moreover, obviously don't live or even feel 'forever'?


But don't you think it's nice to strive to have this agreement forever, with love for all eternity? I do think it's possible to feel love forever, it's something I strongly believe in and what is worth fighting for. But the whole discussion about 'moral' is far too complicated for me, there's always this other side and a second thought so I can't say much about it in general.

I'd say to John that he should discuss it with Mary. If she's okay with it, it's fine. If she's not, he should look after Mary first.
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Oleksij
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Re: Morality.

Postby Oleksij » 2011-07-20, 15:09

Vogelvrij wrote:But don't you think it's nice to strive to have this agreement forever, with love for all eternity?

Of course. But there's no need to resort to a tool of oppression such as marriage.
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MillMaths
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Re: Morality

Postby MillMaths » 2011-07-20, 15:14

Marriage is a matter of consent for both partners. Nobody is being dragged kicking and screaming into this "tool of oppression" for life. :)

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linguoboy
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Re: Morality

Postby linguoboy » 2011-07-20, 15:18

Sophie wrote:Marriage is a matter of consent for both partners. Nobody is being dragged kicking and screaming into this "tool of oppression" for life. :)

Nobody in your intimate circle, perhaps. With all the current debate over immigration to the UK, have you really never heard of arranged marriages?
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Oleksij
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Re: Morality

Postby Oleksij » 2011-07-20, 15:25

Sophie wrote:Marriage is a matter of consent for both partners. Nobody is being dragged kicking and screaming into this "tool of oppression" for life. :)

Marriage is a grave infringement of individuality and personal freedom, in essence, it is a legalised form of prostitution.. behind the smokescreen of 'love' and 'commitment'.
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Tenebrarum
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Re: Morality

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-07-20, 17:12

Oleksij wrote:Marriage is a grave infringement of individuality and personal freedom, in essence, it is a legalised form of prostitution.. behind the smokescreen of 'love' and 'commitment'.

Man, that's radical, maaaan. :lol:
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BezierCurve
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Re: Morality.

Postby BezierCurve » 2011-07-20, 17:36

Somehow I don't see the matter of being married of any importance here... I guess it's more about partnership and how one perceives being loyal in it.
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loqu
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Re: Morality.

Postby loqu » 2011-07-20, 17:51

As sad as his arguments may be, I'm with Oleksij in this.
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