Libertarian purity test

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hlysnan
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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby hlysnan » 2011-07-06, 0:37

NulNuk wrote:I can`t believe in in Unilang ppl don`t know the difference between liberalism and libertarianism,
ppl here actually think they can`t be left wingers and libertarists?, no one here heard about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky, a libertarian socialist?
(btw, minarchist is also a liberatist form).
basicaly, any one that believes in personal freedom, is in some level liberatist.
Libertarianism = personal freedom.
Liberalism = liberal market/economy.


I'm a member of the libertarian society at my uni, and I don't think many accept left-libertarianism or libertarian socialism as a legitimate branch of libertarianism haha. We had one who attended the first meeting, but he never came back.

Saim wrote:The reason we're using it this way is because in the US it's the opposite. "Liberals" are social liberals whereas "libertarians" are market liberals who often (but not always, and definitely less than other American right-wingers) tend towards conservatism on social issues.


No, I don't think libertarians can be social conservatives.

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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby Saim » 2011-07-06, 1:54

Yasha wrote:
Saim wrote:The reason we're using it this way is because in the US it's the opposite. "Liberals" are social liberals whereas "libertarians" are market liberals who often (but not always, and definitely less than other American right-wingers) tend towards conservatism on social issues.


No, I don't think libertarians can be social conservatives.

I wouldn't personally consider them libertarians, but there are plenty of market liberals in the US who have some social conservative leanings. Ideology is not black-and-white, as you don't have to be libertarian on every issue to belong to that sort of "camp" if you know what I mean. For example, a typical American 'libertarian' might support a free market, but be pro-military and anti-drug legalization. Or, they might be pro-market and pro-drug legalization but anti-gay marriage.

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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby Hunef » 2011-07-06, 16:31

NulNuk wrote:Libertarianism = personal freedom.
Liberalism = liberal market/economy.
Yes, a liberal is basically a non-conservative right winger, and a libertarian may be either left or right. Isn't this common knowledge? :para:
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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby NulNuk » 2011-07-06, 17:25

as some one that actually learn political science at univercity, and know the difference, I can`t see how can any one can clame different, and also I know peers that learned political science like me from the US, and they never simed to me like they don`t know the difference.

how can any one clame that libertarianism can`t be left, when the term is mostly used to make difference between those that believe in a liberal (right wing) market, and those that believe in liberty, but not always in liberal right wing market, libertarianims is not about economy at all.
liberals are "light" capitalists, libertarians are "light" anarchists.
(in fact many scholars consider capitalism as a form of liberalism, and anarchism as a form of libertarianism ).
libertarians are like anarchists that still believe in the need of a system and regulations (most would write a country/state, but I personaly don`t believe in the right of countries to exist as they are today, so I write a system), that would make many to believe maybe that they are capitalist, when in fact, the system and regulations liberatist believe are actually mostly about economy and personal defence.
the system should exist to protect the citicent, there for protecting the worker, the poor and the weak , actually makes sence as a liberatist, and that protection that can make a liberatist both right and left, is the difference between a liberatist and an anarchist.
( anarcho-communism does believe in sutch system, but I don`t consider it as an anarchist ideology, instead I believe it to be just a kind of extreem liberatist ideology, like mine, that was named anarchist just because the term liberatist didn`t existed back then, reall anarchist can`t believe in sutch a complicated and regulated system ).
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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby NulNuk » 2011-07-06, 18:25

Saim wrote:
Yasha wrote:
Saim wrote:The reason we're using it this way is because in the US it's the opposite. "Liberals" are social liberals whereas "libertarians" are market liberals who often (but not always, and definitely less than other American right-wingers) tend towards conservatism on social issues.


No, I don't think libertarians can be social conservatives.

I wouldn't personally consider them libertarians, but there are plenty of market liberals in the US who have some social conservative leanings. Ideology is not black-and-white, as you don't have to be libertarian on every issue to belong to that sort of "camp" if you know what I mean. For example, a typical American 'libertarian' might support a free market, but be pro-military and anti-drug legalization. Or, they might be pro-market and pro-drug legalization but anti-gay marriage.


gay marriage = personal freedom, a reall liberatist shouldn`t be against it, a liberalist can be.

drug legalization = both personal freedom and personal protection, you can find liberatist both against and pro, usually depending on how they approuch the issue.

free market = an economy and personal freedom issue, a liberatist should support free market as a personal freedom issue, but as an ideology that also supports personal protection, a liberatist can also support protective socialist regulations to preotect the weak.

I also find that a real liberatist can`t really be also a social conservative, but instead he should be a protective socialist, I my self what I call a "responsible socialist", I believe in both personal freedom and free market, but also in social protection and regulations, the system should protect the ppl so they can live a dissent standard of life, but should let also ppl do any thing they want whith their conpanies, as long as they hurt no one, there for the need for personal protective regulations.
I`m a left wing liberatist, I believe in personal freedom, but I`m also a socialist that believe the system should protect ppl.
(a protective socialist, believes in the need for social protection, a responsible socialist believes socialists should remind them self in a global system, the kind of protection they chouse for their ppl should be one that won`t left them with no work, thats why the "responsable", for example, I prefer to regulate prices to give ppl that work a chance for a dissent life, instead of high salaries that would make the workers non competitive in the global market, and left them with no jobs, even though I would like as a socialist to give them a high salary, and as a liberatist to not regulate prices, it may sound kind of a conformist ideal, but its more a pragmatic nessesity ).
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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby Saim » 2011-07-06, 23:40

NulNuk wrote:as some one that actually learn political science at univercity, and know the difference, I can`t see how can any one can clame different, and also I know peers that learned political science like me from the US, and they never simed to me like they don`t know the difference.

how can any one clame that libertarianism can`t be left, when the term is mostly used to make difference between those that believe in a liberal (right wing) market, and those that believe in liberty, but not always in liberal right wing market, libertarianims is not about economy at all.
liberals are "light" capitalists, libertarians are "light" anarchists.

Of course American academics understand the European distinction. For example, Noam Chomsky calls himself a "libertarian socialist". However, in contemporary American political discourse (the way most Americans understand it), a libertarian is someone who's right-wing on market issues and is usually but not always liberal on social issues.

You say in the rest of your post that any liberal should support gay marriage. Thing is, you don't have to have a liberal position on every issue to be generally liberal.

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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-07-07, 21:44

In America, Libertarian is also the name of a party, which is what causes the confusion. The same could be said about Republicans--they have little to do with the ideology of republicanism.
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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby hlysnan » 2011-07-07, 23:27

The Libertarian Party is actually libertarian though as its two major factions are the minarchists and anarcho-capitalists. I don't see why Americans would have the idea that libertarianism could involve social conservatism.

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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-07-07, 23:44

Because individuals who run under the Libertarian party are often social conservatives?
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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby Saim » 2011-07-08, 8:56

Oh come on, as a language enthusiast surely you understand the concept of semantic drift! Words change in meaning, so what? I was talking about legitimate differences in usage, and I was "refuted" with no true Scotsman fallacies even though I was not remotely claiming all these different "libertarianisms" were all part of the same ideology.

Furthermore, ideology is fluid and not static. Concensuses among particular groups can change, and not every individual belonging to whichever ideology agrees on everything. Once again, you can be generally libertarian and incorporate certain elements of social conservatism.

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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby hlysnan » 2011-07-08, 9:03

I'm not "refuting" anything. I was expressing shock and disbelief.

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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby Saim » 2011-07-08, 14:04

Yasha wrote:I'm not "refuting" anything. I was expressing shock and disbelief.

That part was mainly directed at NulNuk, but yes part of the post was directed at you. I'm sorry I misinterpreted your post as close-mindedness to changes in meaning.

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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby johnklepac » 2012-12-13, 2:55

I got a 24. I'm pretty socially libertarian, though, with a few exceptions: I believe in gun control to a certain extent, I think there are some circumstances in which speech is too conducive of violence or terror to be "free," and I think hard drugs should not be "legal" (though they shouldn't be criminalized either; they should be treated as health issues). That tells me that this quiz is heavily slanted toward economic issues.

Theoretically, there should be a decent number of libertarians who vote Democrat (in the U.S.), but I've barely seen any. Maybe it is becoming much more about economic issues.

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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby Saaropean » 2012-12-13, 12:40

Varislintu wrote:I found these questions even harder to answer accurately than the Moral Matrix questions. Yes and no to such things as "Are taxes too high?"? Depends quite a lot on what taxes, aimed at what group of people, for what purpose. Do they think left and right are some kind of absolute doctrines that people follow blindly like religion? Or worse, should follow absolutely, no matter the consequences and context? It was also very USA-centric, but that's expected, I guess. I got frustrated and didn't finish the test.

I agree with you. But you should have finished the test, because the questions really get funny in the end. And only then will you realize that a very high score can only be achieved by hardcore anarchists. If you ask me, that test is a piece of satire.

My score is 16 by the way.

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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby Bijlee » 2012-12-14, 0:37

16...
Libertarians kind of scare me O_o

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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby johnklepac » 2012-12-15, 18:32

Bijlee wrote:16...
Libertarians kind of scare me O_o


I agree, honestly. It physically sickens me how many otherwise-liberal people love Ron Paul because he wants to legalize pot and, well, isn't violently anti-gay. Even Obama isn't as liberal as everyone says, to say nothing of Paul.

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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby DissidentRage » 2013-01-24, 19:55

I scored a 31 but only because the questions do not permit gray area answers.

Personally I find the libertarian ideology interesting, but in practice, many of its ideals on policy are flat-out wrong, and even more scream "social Darwinism" at the highest-possible decibel. If it didn't sound like the mantra of corporate apologists everywhere, it might be a viable alternative.
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Re: Libertarian purity test

Postby johnklepac » 2013-01-29, 2:59

DissidentRage wrote:I scored a 31 but only because the questions do not permit gray area answers.

Personally I find the libertarian ideology interesting, but in practice, many of its ideals on policy are flat-out wrong, and even more scream "social Darwinism" at the highest-possible decibel. If it didn't sound like the mantra of corporate apologists everywhere, it might be a viable alternative.

Even social Darwinism intrigues me, albeit in a really menacing, grimy way. Libertarianism as a whole, though, just seems a little too crayoned-in around the fringes, though I guess that's what happens when you take such a simple, deceptively practical idea and just go with it. For what it is, it's not bad, though I still like my government big.


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