Communism [split]

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Jurgen Wullenwever
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Re: Communism [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-06-19, 21:14

Oleksij wrote:I won't reply in detail to the above, other than saying that all that is just nice social democratic 'happiness-for-all' view, which is exactly what you said - utopian.

It is apparently possible to do it the other way around, as when China had a forced lower value for its currency than the market would have given it. You just have to do the same for Western currencies.

Why should it be utopian to forbid imports from countries that do not follow your regulations? We do have some restrictions already, and there are sanctions on specific countries from time to time, so that is also already happening.

You seem therefore to claim that the current world is just an unpleasant liberal hell-for-many utopia.

Having regulations is not utopian.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

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Tenebrarum
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Re: Communism [split]

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-06-19, 21:19

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Why should it be utopian to forbid imports from countries that do not follow your regulations?

Because if they're cheap, they're going to find their way into your domestic market anyway, without becoming much more expensive.

Protectionism is yet another thing - it's mostly about taxing imports and granting subsidies to local industries. Protectionism is also the only way for poor countries to industrialise and get rich fast. See: European colonial powers, USA, Japan, the Four Asian Dragons... virtually every developed country.
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Oleksij
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Re: Communism [split]

Postby Oleksij » 2011-06-19, 21:30

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
Oleksij wrote:I won't reply in detail to the above, other than saying that all that is just nice social democratic 'happiness-for-all' view, which is exactly what you said - utopian.

It is apparently possible to do it the other way around, as when China had a forced lower value for its currency than the market would have given it. You just have to do the same for Western currencies.

'You just have to do the same' is another nice thing to say. China keeps the yuan purposely undervalued by using it's massive foreign currency and gold reserves, as well as holding a lion's share of the US debts, something that many Western states cannot do to nearly the same extent (China has a population larger than the European Union and United States combined and is the second largest economy in the world in absolute numbers). Good luck trying to beat China by numbers.

Why should it be utopian to forbid imports from countries that do not follow your regulations? We do have some restrictions already, and there are sanctions on specific countries from time to time, so that is also already happening.


If every country was free to forbid imports which do not exactly follow every regulation in that country, there would be virtually no world trade (have you ever even tried to go through the customs in order to import a pallet of non-WTO member originating produce? I guess not). In reality, though, countries already have established common general standards, through ISO, the World Trade Organisation and the like. Of course, those standards are pretty generic overall, even if very specific at times, and established by a bunch of unelected capitalist-funded bureaucrats. But if you're ready to take on arms and lead a revolutionary struggle of world ecologist and social-democratic-anarchist-fairness-for-all hippies to overturn the evil capitalists and establish a world Nordic state, sure, be my guest.

[/sarcasm]

Having regulations is not utopian.

What you are talking about is not regulation - it's restriction. Restrictions exist one way or another, but there are points in various contexts when restrictions become counter-productive, at least in terms of economics.

You seem therefore to claim that the current world is just an unpleasant liberal hell-for-many utopia.

Ehm... it is. :roll:
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Jurgen Wullenwever
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Re: Communism [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-06-19, 21:42

Oleksij wrote:But if you're ready to take on arms and lead a revolutionary struggle of world ecologist and social-democratic-anarchist-fairness-for-all hippies to overturn the evil capitalists and establish a world Nordic state, sure, be my guest.

[/sarcasm]

There was that German social democrat / animal rights / public health / anti tobacco / vegetarian who actually did something like that a few decades ago ...
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Communism [split]

Postby Oleksij » 2011-06-19, 21:43

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
Oleksij wrote:But if you're ready to take on arms and lead a revolutionary struggle of world ecologist and social-democratic-anarchist-fairness-for-all hippies to overturn the evil capitalists and establish a world Nordic state, sure, be my guest.

[/sarcasm]

There was that German social democrat / animal rights / public health / anti tobacco / vegetarian who actually did something like that a few decades ago ...

Thankfully, he failed, but I really liked his moustache.
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Re: Communism [split]

Postby Hunef » 2011-06-19, 23:00

Oleksij wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:There was that German social democrat / animal rights / public health / anti tobacco / vegetarian who actually did something like that a few decades ago ...

Thankfully, he failed, but I really liked his moustache.
He was a social democrat? :hmm:
There are social democrats with moustaches, though:

          Image
      Håkan Juholt [ˈhoːˌkan ˈjʉːˌhɔlt], new leader of the Swedish Social Democratic Party.
As a side note - this community being a linguistic one, after all - people seem to be ridiculously confused by how to pronounce his surname Juholt regarding the choice of pitch accent - acute or grave.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Re: Communism [split]

Postby hlysnan » 2011-06-20, 0:05

Draven wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Why should it be utopian to forbid imports from countries that do not follow your regulations?

Because if they're cheap, they're going to find their way into your domestic market anyway, without becoming much more expensive.

Protectionism is yet another thing - it's mostly about taxing imports and granting subsidies to local industries. Protectionism is also the only way for poor countries to industrialise and get rich fast. See: European colonial powers, USA, Japan, the Four Asian Dragons... virtually every developed country.


I'm actually starting to become a bit more sympathetic towards protectionism, but it's not the only way for poor countries to lift themselves. Look at Ireland and Estonia.

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Re: Communism [split]

Postby JackFrost » 2011-06-20, 0:06

Image
Jack Layton, leader of the National Democratic Party of Canada.

His moustache has been well discussed and teased.
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Tenebrarum
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Re: Communism [split]

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-06-20, 0:19

Yasha wrote:I'm actually starting to become a bit more sympathetic towards protectionism, but it's not the only way for poor countries to lift themselves. Look at Ireland and Estonia.

Thing is, you must get admitted into something like the EU to go on the path of Ireland and Estonia. And those two countries actually had fairly good starting point in terms of skilled workforce to invest in knowledge-based industries - they didn't get more well off by exporting raw materials and agriculture products. Try free trade with the Philippines or Vietnam and eugh, nothing much to gain but a growing negative trade balance, as can be seen.
Last edited by Tenebrarum on 2011-06-20, 0:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Communism [split]

Postby Oleksij » 2011-06-20, 0:29

Draven wrote:
Yasha wrote:I'm actually starting to become a bit more sympathetic towards protectionism, but it's not the only way for poor countries to lift themselves. Look at Ireland and Estonia.

Thing is, you must get admitted into something like the EU to go on the path of Ireland and Estonia. And those two countries actually had fairly good starting point in terms of skilled workforce. Try free trade with the Philippines or Vietnam and eugh, nothing much to gain but a growing negative trade balance, as can be seen.

It's not so much whether the country had previously joined any union of the sort, it's the history, and its corresponding effects on society, education and culture. A place like the Philippines or Vietnam, which would have been used for nothing more than a back-door cash-crop field for the metropolitan empire's exports cannot become and industrialised state, in practice.

Also, being a former dominion of the British helps in that.
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Re: Communism [split]

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-06-20, 0:39

I don't know. I think, if a damaged and traumatised ex-colony like South Korea could do it, so could everyone else. A government knowing economics and how to plan would help tremendously - that's precisely what lacking in less developed countries, and idealistically we can start from there. Idealistically, of course.

But there's also the view that being poor in natural resources would incentivise a nation to build industry no matter what (the regime of SK had to do what it could merely to survive), and I'm in complete agreement.
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Re: Communism [split]

Postby hlysnan » 2011-06-20, 1:30

I think the most important thing is to create incentives (or at least make it safe) for foreign investment. Currently, Vietnam is ranked 173rd in protecting investors (actually decreased by 1 rank from last year). It scores 0/10 in the extent of director liability index and 2/10 for ease of shareholder suits index.

http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/explo ... es/vietnam

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Re: Communism [split]

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-06-20, 2:34

Lol! For Vietnam, it's a bit futile to look at stats. The country's got so many problems, it's not even at the stage where you can compare it with another country. I'm surprised it's not rock-bottom, honestly.
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Re: Communism [split]

Postby hlysnan » 2011-06-20, 3:35

Well, to be fair, 173rd is pretty much rock bottom.

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Re: Communism [split]

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-06-20, 5:05

If you call that rock bottom, you don't know Vietnam. We can always do it better. Watch and learn.
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Re: Communism [split]

Postby loqu » 2011-06-20, 5:44

I love (because it's funny) and feel a bit sad at the same time about Draven's destructiveness towards Vietnam.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Lada » 2011-06-20, 7:35

ILuvEire wrote: Lada, this reminds me of Ostalgie.

In my case, I don't think so. There's a "soviet" fashion, but it doesn't have any emotional connection with the past, it's just one more way to earn money in new capitalist reality. Taking into account that it's popular among those who don't remember Soviet days at all...

Varislintu wrote:But wasn't everything basically forcefully molded into a marxist subject? Like marxist biology, marxist sociology, even marxist mathematics, as far as it was possible :)?

Of course not. Everything was as it is everywhere. Marxism was a separate subject and nobody really liked it, coz it was boring and useless unless you wanted to make a career in Communist Party. I got school education according to Soviet system and I think that I'm lucky.

Wasn't the lack of housing an appalling situation, or was that only in Estonia? I read that you had to queue for years for a small flat without any luxuries, watching "friends of right people" getting ahead in the queue all the time, you paying bribes yourself. And then once you had a flat, if you for example divorced your husband, it might be years before you got to actually separate due to the lack of housing.

There were "queues" but Soviets gave the flat to those who deserved that - if you are a good worker you will get it for sure, like my grandmother did. Corruption existed of course, but it was limited. I don't know what you mean by "without any luxuries" - all flats are with toilet/bathroom, cold&hot water, with central heating of course, some have balconies. Are they small? They can be different depending on the size of your family. My grandmother got a flat of 64m2 for three persons - that's big according to soviet standards.

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Re: Communism [split]

Postby Spaigelploatje » 2011-06-20, 7:53

I don't think we have a party leader with a moustache here..
Job Cohen is the leader of the social democrats
Image
Some interesting notes for some here:
At midnight on 1 April 2001, Cohen became the first public official to wed same-sex couples, following the passing of legislation opening up marriage to people of the same gender


In November 2004, controversial film maker Theo van Gogh was killed in Amsterdam by a Muslim extremist. Time awarded Cohen the title "European Hero" in 2005, for his inclusive approach towards the Muslim community after the murder, defusing tension in the city.[23]

Cohen found himself thrown into the role of mediator between the city's Muslims, the original Dutch population and other groups in the cultural and racial mix. Almost half Amsterdam's residents are of non-Western descent, a majority of them Muslims."Islam is here to stay, in this country, in this city (...) We have to deal with Islam as a fact, not whether we like it. So the real question is how to get on with each other." Cohen took pride in the fact that in Amsterdam no violence or arson occurred in response to the killing.

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Re: Communism [split]

Postby TeneReef » 2012-06-15, 7:43

Forced abortion in China shocked the world:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... l?ITO=1490


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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Kavkaz » 2012-06-24, 3:07

loqu wrote:How can biology be marxist? Honest question, I'd love to know how you can marxify natural sciences.


Oh, biology can absolutely be Marxist! I'll give you one example of Marxist biology that the Soviet government--Stalin, specifically--pushed. It was called "Lysenkoism," after Soviet scientist Trofim Lysenko. I could try and type out a long explanation of how dangerous this hybrid (pun intended) between politics and science can be, but it's already been done for me. This will give you a general idea of Lysenkoism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
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