Communism [split]

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Communism [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-06-18, 20:33

Polonus wrote:As for the level of language teaching - you are right - it was bad.

I heard the same about Czechoslovak schools, but in contrast to that I had a tourist guide in Leningrad 1984 who had studied Swedish for one year, and spoke flawlessly. :shock:

Oleksij wrote:Everything supposedly 'better' about the old times that most people ever bring up is entirely subjective, non-quantifiable POV. In other words, most of it was pulled out of the ass.

Swedish education has steadily become worse since around 1960, due to pedagogical reforms. And this is actually quantifiable, but defenders of the current system then claim that the pupils do not have to know anything, and that they are trained in "problem solving" instead. The universities complain that the new students do not even know the multiplication tables these days.

One family took one look at their son's Swedish school books, and decided to send him to a boarding school in Turkey instead, and he can still help Swedish university students from what he learned before age 15. (This son said that he would let his children go to the Swedish school, so he did apparently not agree with his parents or me.)

One Swedish teacher mentioned that foreign exchange students, after having been one year in a Swedish school, stated that they will be one year behind when they return.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

User avatar
Oleksij
Posts: 4762
Joined: 2005-06-28, 16:46
Real Name: Олексій Мірошниченко
Gender: male
Location: Nicosia
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)
Contact:

Re: Communism [split]

Postby Oleksij » 2011-06-18, 21:36

Polonus wrote:Again, I have no intentions whatsoever to defend the communist/socialist system, but it had some (what 10%) of positive aspects. Now that I see some of my ex-students working at gas-stations or performing jobs for 400 euro a month, or going abroad to wash dishes in London restaurants,... I am beginning to have some mixed feelings.

This is a well-established process in empirical economics simply called 'the rising Non-Accelerated Inflation Rate of Unemployment' ('NAIRU' for short) and has very little, if anything, to do with the quality of education. Because of constantly changing economic realities and systems, as well as globalisation and the industrial specialisation that it brings with it, a lot more people in the developed world simply find the skills they have (whatever they are) redundant, because, strictly speaking, an equivalent, say, aeronautic engineering graduate from a PR Chinese university can do the same thing as you, only 10 times cheaper. Thus, companies outsource there, and you lose your aeronautic engineering job in Europe and are forced to go work at gas stations or clean dishes in Dublin pubs.
Moja ulica murem podzielona - świeci neonami prawa strona, lewa strona cała wygaszona, zza zasłony obserwuję obie strony.
My Youtube Channel
Last.fm

User avatar
loqu
Posts: 11835
Joined: 2007-08-15, 21:12
Real Name: Daniel
Gender: male
Location: Sevilla [seˈβiʝa] (Andalucía), born in Cádiz [ˈkaði]

Re: Communism [split]

Postby loqu » 2011-06-18, 22:40

Oleksij wrote:People who say 'there was nothing to be stolen' are likewise delusional.

I get the feeling we will never agree on anything even when I'm not defending communism. :P
Not all thieves are equal, anyway. Some steal out of total desperation, but the desperation of others isn't as high, and not everyone needs the same. Of course to some people 2 € will be a fresh breeze, but to others it won't mean anything. When there is nothing to be stolen, only the ones living in absolute poverty will feel tempted to mug others just for that little cash.
Dir la veritat sempre és revolucionari.

User avatar
Oleksij
Posts: 4762
Joined: 2005-06-28, 16:46
Real Name: Олексій Мірошниченко
Gender: male
Location: Nicosia
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)
Contact:

Re: Communism [split]

Postby Oleksij » 2011-06-18, 22:43

loqu wrote:When there is nothing to be stolen, only the ones living in absolute poverty will feel tempted to mug others just for that little cash.

Necessity is the reasoning behind the vast majority of theft.

I get the feeling we will never agree on anything even when I'm not defending communism.

Perhaps not. Most people fail to appreciate economics and social phenomena in a truly Polanyist way - something that explains a lot.
Last edited by Oleksij on 2011-06-18, 22:52, edited 1 time in total.
Moja ulica murem podzielona - świeci neonami prawa strona, lewa strona cała wygaszona, zza zasłony obserwuję obie strony.
My Youtube Channel
Last.fm

User avatar
loqu
Posts: 11835
Joined: 2007-08-15, 21:12
Real Name: Daniel
Gender: male
Location: Sevilla [seˈβiʝa] (Andalucía), born in Cádiz [ˈkaði]

Re: Communism [split]

Postby loqu » 2011-06-18, 22:51

Guess I won't be able to speak about society again then?

Of course necessity is the reason of theft, but people to whom that little cash may have meant something were pretty scarce.
Dir la veritat sempre és revolucionari.

User avatar
Oleksij
Posts: 4762
Joined: 2005-06-28, 16:46
Real Name: Олексій Мірошниченко
Gender: male
Location: Nicosia
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)
Contact:

Re: Communism [split]

Postby Oleksij » 2011-06-18, 23:00

loqu wrote:Guess I won't be able to speak about society again then?

I don't see why not.

Of course necessity is the reason of theft, but people to whom that little cash may have meant something were pretty scarce.

Except for when you steal more than once, in which case it multiplies or, by sheer luck or deliberation, actually steal from someone who happens to carry something of considerable value.

Either way, I disagree that crime or theft were less prominent in the communist world, since it's a universal socio-economic phenomenon, suppressed only by culture, but not system.
Moja ulica murem podzielona - świeci neonami prawa strona, lewa strona cała wygaszona, zza zasłony obserwuję obie strony.
My Youtube Channel
Last.fm

User avatar
JackFrost
Forum Administrator
Posts: 16240
Joined: 2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name: Jack Frost
Gender: male
Location: Montréal, Québec
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Communism [split]

Postby JackFrost » 2011-06-19, 6:52

An education system corrupted by censorship cannot be considered as the best. The Soviets might be well skilled in science, but I wouldn't be listening to the teachers in history classes anywhere in the Soviet Union.

Draven's country schools did not teach him to think and talk like that right in this topic. I wonder at what point of his life when he realized he was brainwashed and how.
Neferuj paħujkij!

User avatar
loqu
Posts: 11835
Joined: 2007-08-15, 21:12
Real Name: Daniel
Gender: male
Location: Sevilla [seˈβiʝa] (Andalucía), born in Cádiz [ˈkaði]

Re: Communism [split]

Postby loqu » 2011-06-19, 8:42

I don't think we really think the way they teach us. Some people are just more prone to critical thinking. I mean, in our beloved democracy we are supposed to think critically, but hit me if most people do.

Brainwashing is not exclusive to totalitary regimes. But in 'free' countries the brain washer is the media.
Dir la veritat sempre és revolucionari.

User avatar
ILuvEire
Posts: 10398
Joined: 2007-12-08, 17:41
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Communism [split]

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-06-19, 8:50

You got it, Loqu. The Soviet Union was plagued by 1984-style censorship, while the Western world is plagued by the just as terrible Brave New World-style censorship.
[flag]de[/flag] [flag]da[/flag] [flag]fr-qc[/flag] [flag]haw[/flag] [flag]he[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]
Current focus: [flag]ga[/flag] [flag]ar[/flag]
Facebook | tumblr | Twitter
“We need to make books cool again. If you go home with somebody and they don't have books, don't fuck them.” —John Waters

Polonus
Posts: 350
Joined: 2011-02-15, 15:34
Gender: male
Country: PL Poland (Polska)

Re: Communism [split]

Postby Polonus » 2011-06-19, 9:27

loqu wrote:I don't think we really think the way they teach us. Some people are just more prone to critical thinking. I mean, in our beloved democracy we are supposed to think critically, but hit me if most people do.

Brainwashing is not exclusive to totalitary regimes. But in 'free' countries the brain washer is the media.


Exactamente. In the socialist system (case of Poland) censorship and official propaganda were very ineffective. There was a private, underground truth which everybody knew and there was an enormous gap between us and "them". Even "they" didn't seem to believe in what they proclaimed.

Now in the free Poland people do not realize that they are brainwashed again buy in a different, more subtle way. If one keeps watching just one tv chanel which is the propaganda trumpet of the ruling party right now in office, one cannot fail to be brainwashed just by one "truth".

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Communism [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-06-19, 9:32

Oleksij wrote:a lot more people in the developed world simply find the skills they have (whatever they are) redundant, because, strictly speaking, an equivalent, say, aeronautic engineering graduate from a PR Chinese university can do the same thing as you, only 10 times cheaper. Thus, companies outsource there, and you lose your aeronautic engineering job in Europe and are forced to go work at gas stations or clean dishes in Dublin pubs.

That happens only because it is allowed to happen. Earlier we had nationwide labour unions demanding equal pay for equal work. Let us say that we had a worldwide labour movement insisting on the same cost levels everywhere, otherwise imports from such countries would be banned.

A few decades ago, such measures were normal, but if you mention anything like that today, you will just be regarded as a utopian. What is utopian with being legal? The Chinese wages are illegal in Sweden, so why should we allow imports from them?

This would make consumer goods more expensive, but that is actually a good thing, since we would not be able to buy as many, with less impact on the environment. They would also have to be more longlived than today, when a computer seems to break down after just over a year. (Mine turned blank two times during last night, and I had to take out the battery to turn it off, so I could restart it.)

You might say that this cannot be enforced, but apparently there are wars being started over smaller matters, such as nonexisting weapons of mass destruction, so simple customs duties would seem much easier than that.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

User avatar
JackFrost
Forum Administrator
Posts: 16240
Joined: 2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name: Jack Frost
Gender: male
Location: Montréal, Québec
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Communism [split]

Postby JackFrost » 2011-06-19, 9:39

Just want to say.... Hmmm, ok... I'm mistaken in some way.

I did want to know if it really worked that way back then.

Speaking of Poland, I did read a very interesting "bande dessinée" that was drawn by a Polish girl who grew up during the last decade of communism. I don't remember her name and her comic titles though. :? But it did show a lot of "dissent" that many Poles didn't really buy what the communist party tried to tell them. That would the Solidarity and other things.
Neferuj paħujkij!

User avatar
Tenebrarum
Posts: 6616
Joined: 2006-06-22, 17:02
Real Name: Duy
Gender: male

Re: Communism [split]

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-06-19, 10:01

JackFrost wrote:Draven's country schools did not teach him to think and talk like that right in this topic. I wonder at what point of his life when he realized he was brainwashed and how.

I... don't know. I think it's a gradual process. Thanks largely to the Internet, and loqu's right, people who are more cynical will have an easier time seeing past the lies.
!Chalice! Communion wafer of the tabernacle

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Communism [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-06-19, 10:05

Do they not have any control or surveillance of the internet? Can you write whatever without repercussions? :para:

(Of course the EU wants to watch everything as well. :( )
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

User avatar
Tenebrarum
Posts: 6616
Joined: 2006-06-22, 17:02
Real Name: Duy
Gender: male

Re: Communism [split]

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-06-19, 10:24

The question is where you write your dissent thoughts, and in what language. If you write in English, on Unilang or any website that internet users in Vietnam haven't heard of, you're invisible to the rest of Vietnam, and so not a threat to the regime by any measure. But if your readership is Vietnamese, then it means your site is within the Vietnamese splinsternet, and well...

I'm sure the government would love to have a Great Fire Wall like China does, but they don't have the money and the knowhow. Apparently they only care about places where Vietnamese people congregate in large number: Yahoo! 360° (the blog platform for Vietnam's youth) is controlled, and Geocities is a no-no, because that's where the diaspora launch their anti-communist sites. Facebook is partially blocked, though they deny it. They still fail to block BBC Vietnamese, for some reason. Twitter and Youtube have never been on the radar, as they're simply not popular here.
!Chalice! Communion wafer of the tabernacle

User avatar
Aurinĭa
Forum Administrator
Posts: 3727
Joined: 2008-05-14, 21:18
Gender: female
Country: BE Belgium (België / Belgique)

Re: Communism [split]

Postby Aurinĭa » 2011-06-19, 15:59

JackFrost wrote:Speaking of Poland, I did read a very interesting "bande dessinée" that was drawn by a Polish girl who grew up during the last decade of communism. I don't remember her name and her comic titles though. :? But it did show a lot of "dissent" that many Poles didn't really buy what the communist party tried to tell them. That would the Solidarity and other things.
That wouldn't happen to be Marzi by Marzena Sowa?

User avatar
Oleksij
Posts: 4762
Joined: 2005-06-28, 16:46
Real Name: Олексій Мірошниченко
Gender: male
Location: Nicosia
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)
Contact:

Re: Communism [split]

Postby Oleksij » 2011-06-19, 18:04

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
Oleksij wrote:a lot more people in the developed world simply find the skills they have (whatever they are) redundant, because, strictly speaking, an equivalent, say, aeronautic engineering graduate from a PR Chinese university can do the same thing as you, only 10 times cheaper. Thus, companies outsource there, and you lose your aeronautic engineering job in Europe and are forced to go work at gas stations or clean dishes in Dublin pubs.

That happens only because it is allowed to happen. Earlier we had nationwide labour unions demanding equal pay for equal work. Let us say that we had a worldwide labour movement insisting on the same cost levels everywhere, otherwise imports from such countries would be banned.

First of all, 'cost levels' in general can never be equal, even if labour costs theoretically can. Secondly, no, it does not 'happen because it is allowed to happen'. It's a natural process that has happened throughout history. When agriculture came around, hunters and gatherers found their way of life endangered by other entities no longer dependant on constant migration and nature's provision. Likewise, when Karl Benz invented the car and they became progressively more common, horse-carriage drivers protested about being in danger of losing their jobs, which they eventually did, anyway. Then answer to the specification of labour is not trying to stop it, but rather altering your own specification and skills.

A few decades ago, such measures were normal, but if you mention anything like that today, you will just be regarded as a utopian. What is utopian with being legal? The Chinese wages are illegal in Sweden, so why should we allow imports from them?

This would make consumer goods more expensive, but that is actually a good thing, since we would not be able to buy as many, with less impact on the environment. They would also have to be more longlived than today, when a computer seems to break down after just over a year. (Mine turned blank two times during last night, and I had to take out the battery to turn it off, so I could restart it.)

You might say that this cannot be enforced, but apparently there are wars being started over smaller matters, such as nonexisting weapons of mass destruction, so simple customs duties would seem much easier than that.

I won't reply in detail to the above, other than saying that all that is just nice social democratic 'happiness-for-all' view, which is exactly what you said - utopian.
Moja ulica murem podzielona - świeci neonami prawa strona, lewa strona cała wygaszona, zza zasłony obserwuję obie strony.
My Youtube Channel
Last.fm

User avatar
Hunef
Posts: 9532
Joined: 2004-01-21, 20:55
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Communism [split]

Postby Hunef » 2011-06-19, 18:48

loqu wrote:Brainwashing is not exclusive to totalitary regimes. But in 'free' countries the brain washer is the media.
The difference is that in liberal countries the brainwashers usually don't have the power to harm you (unless they do something that is considered illegal).
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

User avatar
Oleksij
Posts: 4762
Joined: 2005-06-28, 16:46
Real Name: Олексій Мірошниченко
Gender: male
Location: Nicosia
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)
Contact:

Re: Communism [split]

Postby Oleksij » 2011-06-19, 19:27

Hunef wrote:
loqu wrote:Brainwashing is not exclusive to totalitary regimes. But in 'free' countries the brain washer is the media.
The difference is that in liberal countries the brainwashers usually don't have the power to harm you (unless they do something that is considered illegal).

Another difference is that, in liberal democracies, alternatives always exist, i.e. you don't have to watch mainstream TV (if at all) or follow mainstream media, you can follow whatever suits your preferences instead.

In the end, I think that dissatisfaction with liberal democracy in general comes from a lack of responsibility - it is not that a certain side's propaganda may be strong, but since other sources of thought and information are also permitted, one has no excuse not to be responsible for keeping their mind open, or 'unbrainwashed'.
Moja ulica murem podzielona - świeci neonami prawa strona, lewa strona cała wygaszona, zza zasłony obserwuję obie strony.
My Youtube Channel
Last.fm

User avatar
JackFrost
Forum Administrator
Posts: 16240
Joined: 2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name: Jack Frost
Gender: male
Location: Montréal, Québec
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Communism [split]

Postby JackFrost » 2011-06-19, 20:10

melan wrote:
JackFrost wrote:Speaking of Poland, I did read a very interesting "bande dessinée" that was drawn by a Polish girl who grew up during the last decade of communism. I don't remember her name and her comic titles though. :? But it did show a lot of "dissent" that many Poles didn't really buy what the communist party tried to tell them. That would the Solidarity and other things.
That wouldn't happen to be Marzi by Marzena Sowa?

Yes!!! That's the one!!!
Neferuj paħujkij!


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest