Communism [split]

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Narbleh
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Narbleh » 2011-06-17, 16:24

Avoiding the news of course goes without saying.

:shock:
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby loqu » 2011-06-17, 16:33

Lenguas wrote:Es muy bueno.
circa la media de los años 1960
el siglo XXI y tarde XX
programs por niños
decider
presión de los pares

you aren't aware that Spanish and English are different languages, are you?

Lenguas wrote:Es muy bueno Está bien. Pero aquí también es posible minimizar el mal que se mira en la televisión. (Por supuesto simplemente nunca ver la televisión funciona también.) Hay muchos dibujos animados en la televisión (los miro en castellano) que no tienen malas influencias, Programas desde antes de circa la media mediados de los años 1960 son también buenos. Hay programas desde el siglo XXI y tarde finales del XX, especialmente programas por para niños, son buenos también, pero se debe tener cuidado. No se debe ver las noticias por supuesto. Normalmente los programas malos son en la tarde y noche. Es posible recibir una sinopsis del programa para decidir si ver el programa o no. Es una buena idea. Yo veo programas malos a veces, pero no muy malos programas.
Sí, ciertamente la televisión tiene una grande efecto en la gente. Frecuentemente la gente actúa como la gente que vene en la televisión. Y hay mucha presión de los pares compañeros/amigos para ver malos programas.

This just in: the Spanish infinitive never conveys a meaning of purpose like the English does. You need para.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-06-17, 16:44

loqu wrote:Hey, I'm just saying what I read. Some people here also fall into Ponzi schemes (we had a scandal related to a stamp scam some years ago) but the Average Joe will doubt of it.

Communists had money too, but I think what people could do with their money was much more limited than in a capitalist system, wasn't it? Investments and so on.

The Average Joe will doubt it because he knows that there are some schemes he should look out for, not because he's got a working knowledge of economics.

I do agree, though, that they have been more susceptible to fraud because they never had the opportunity to invest their money and never had the opportunity to be defrauded.

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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-06-17, 16:46

Narbleh wrote:
Avoiding the news of course goes without saying.

:shock:

You haven't noticed before that Lenguas isn't always in touch with what goes on outside his town?

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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-06-17, 18:07

loqu wrote:Lada's point of view sounds pretty much like the Ostalgie Tyler mentioned, but your arguments, Mona, sound rather like specially biased reports of how inhuman communism was.

Idk, call me biased, but I'm sure communism is one of the most vile ideologies humankind has ever come across. It's up there with fascism on the scale of brutality. It takes living in a communist country to see all the lies, and how inhumane it actually is. I consider myself extremely lucky to be born in a time when the CPV is no longer truly communist. They're still deceitful and oppressive as ever, but at least they're now too busy receiving bribe, and so not axe crazy anymore.

The most frustrating thing about it, is that atrocities get covered up, and young people actually get brainwashed into believing the regime and Vietnam are one and the same.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Oleksij » 2011-06-17, 20:53

All the great things people who spent their youth during the Soviet times tell us are only the black-on-white nice text that that state imprinted into people's minds. It is what lied between the lines that was the most horrifying.

And yes, people did wait for many years, often for their whole life, for an apartment, and for many hours from dawn queueing for basic things outside shops, because most of the time they were empty (you could buy stuff at open-air markets though, but you can't feed the whole population through allowing old babushkas to sell their taters from a tent).

Idk, call me biased, but I'm sure communism is one of the most vile ideologies humankind has ever come across. It's up there with fascism on the scale of brutality.

Communism and fascism are two sides of the same coin, for me.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby JackFrost » 2011-06-17, 21:12

Hunef wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:I spent some time in green clothes in the woods with old weapons and stuff, in the cold war era, and it might seem odd today, but people were afraid of a nuclear war as a very real possibility back then.
Wasn't the Cold War over when you did the military service? If you're born 1971 you would've graduated from high school in June 1990 and then made your military service 1990-91. The Cold War ended in 1989.

The Cold War didn't end in 1989, but in 1991 with the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-06-17, 21:31

Rumpetroll wrote:
Narbleh wrote:
Avoiding the news of course goes without saying.

:shock:

You haven't noticed before that Lenguas isn't always in touch with what goes on outside his town house?

Fixed.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby sa wulfs » 2011-06-17, 21:42

I'd fix it further, but I wouldn't know whether to use basement or attic.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby księżycowy » 2011-06-17, 22:06

Basement.

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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Polonus » 2011-06-17, 22:12

Lada wrote:And I want back in USSR. I miss it, may be because my childhood was in Soviet times and some sweet memories are connected with that period :roll: From the child's point of view, everything was great in Soviet Days,.........


I understand you, Lada. I really do. Ya vas ochen' horosho ponimayu.

So do I. I miss the People's Republic of Poland... because I was 20 and she was 21 and we would sit on a park bench, and she had such beautiful blue eyes, and she smelt of milk, and her complexion was so soft, and, and, ... and I had such a strong erection, and it was May and the air smelt of lilacs and then we went to her place...( her mother was out standing for hours in the line in front of the butcher's shop to buy a half a kilo of meat,)... and it was the first time! :? . And, in fact it is the only argument for my nostalgia for those "communist times" in Poland.
I know it's a complex problem and we could spend whole night over coffee talking about that, but I do understand you. The "westerners" will never do.

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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby loqu » 2011-06-17, 22:20

Draven wrote:Idk, call me biased, but I'm sure communism is one of the most vile ideologies humankind has ever come across. It's up there with fascism on the scale of brutality. It takes living in a communist country to see all the lies, and how inhumane it actually is. I consider myself extremely lucky to be born in a time when the CPV is no longer truly communist. They're still deceitful and oppressive as ever, but at least they're now too busy receiving bribe, and so not axe crazy anymore.

The most frustrating thing about it, is that atrocities get covered up, and young people actually get brainwashed into believing the regime and Vietnam are one and the same.

I'm sad that you've come to have that opinion, though I totally understand why you think so. I can't consider those regimes truly communist because they weren't/aren't. But well, I must acknowledge they have ruined the ideology, which I strongly believe it's the best in theory. Of course I admit I'm also severely biased, having grown up in the working class in a capitalist ex-fascist country and inside a left-wing leaning family.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-06-17, 23:22

As can be seen in the political compass thread, I'm actually a borderline socialist. But socialism =/= communism. To me socialism in its pragmatic form is about wealth sharing, keeping corporations in check and taming the economic cycle. Sacrifice a bit of efficiency to achieve greater equality and stability. It's present in every facet of life in fact.

Communism on the other hand is inherently authoritarian. It advocates the rule of one class on another, and of course, the one party thing. That's the evil aspect of it, right there. Basically, it kills people to create a new ruling class. This is not a topic for my limited intellect to elaborate on; just three words: The Animal Farm. In my opinion, anyone against fascism should stand against communism as well. Two sides of the same coin, as Oleksij put it.

I hope the fully adult future me will have the courage to fight for democracy in Vietnam, and I'm telling myself I have to, unless I get to migrate to somewhere else. Seeing the truth but unable to do anything about it, even in the littlest of way. That fills me with shame. Just one more reason why I'm not worthy of a person. :(
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby JackFrost » 2011-06-17, 23:51

One day, I'll have to figure out how to smuggle in a copy of The Animal Farm if I ever come to Vietnam. Is there a security check at the Tan Son Nhat customs? where they check every bag and suitcase for arrivals?
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Oleksij » 2011-06-17, 23:55

loqu wrote:I'm sad that you've come to have that opinion, though I totally understand why you think so. I can't consider those regimes truly communist because they weren't/aren't. But well, I must acknowledge they have ruined the ideology, which I strongly believe it's the best in theory. Of course I admit I'm also severely biased, having grown up in the working class in a capitalist ex-fascist country and inside a left-wing leaning family.

Same old 'they were not real communists' no-true-Scotsman argument. If they weren't, who was phone, then? As far as I'm concerned those are the only people in history who actually called themselves 'communist' and came to power - if you have an example of that utopian ideal that many leftists call 'real communism', please do share (interwar anarchist-ruled areas of Spain likely to be a candidate).

Funny, I watched and interesting video featuring David Graeber today, where he discussed the maussian view of exchanges and markets.

As much as I would want to sympathise with the left on anarchism and ['real'/'true'] communism, I accept them as valid ideological aspirations (sic), but they are not achievable. Homo sapiens is not wired to work that way.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Tenebrarum » 2011-06-17, 23:59

JackFrost wrote:Is there a security check at the Tan Son Nhat customs? where they check every bag and suitcase for arrivals?

I'm afraid so. We bought some books from America through my sister's friend, and she brought them to us on her vacation to Vietnam. No racy content, but the assholes at customs didn't know what the books are about (custom officials... with modest reading comprehension of English, lmao - they're just there because they're related to somebody there), so they gave her a bit of a hassle before letting her go. They tore her boxes open and didn't bother to patch them up once done.

But you're a white Westerner so I don't think they would do the same. They're just very suspicious of Việt Kiều.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby JackFrost » 2011-06-18, 0:11

Draven wrote:But you're a white Westerner so I don't think they would do the same. They're just very suspicious of Việt Kiều.

I'll just store a .pdf copy in my camera memory card and you could still print it and bind it. Well, just as long as your computer has slots for camera memory cards. ;)

Unless you really want a plain original bound copy.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Hunef » 2011-06-18, 0:16

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:I was exempted from compulsory military service in november 1989, [...]
Me too, but this was when only about 50% (of boys) had to do the military service. I acted just crazy enough to end up in the reserve. I guess they won't call me since we have a purely professional military force these days, luckily. Hopefully the military will be privatized soon earning its money from seizing foreign oil fields and such. (Just kidding.)

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:[...] but in the years 1986-1989 I was in the air force youth organisation, [...]
I was in a local kids' rifle club in the early 90's shooting with .22 caliber rifles (i.e., a "saloon rifle"). It was only a summer or so, though.

JackFrost wrote:The Cold War didn't end in 1989, but in 1991 with the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
Well, 1989 is the symbolic year. the Cold War could be said to have ended in 1985 too becoming a "Lukewarm War". The final nail in the coffin was of course given in 1991, as you suggest.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby Varislintu » 2011-06-18, 7:21

Polonus wrote:The "westerners" will never do.


Argh, I find it so annoying when people say this :P. Not because it may not be true, but because it's usually accompanied by an end to a conversation, or a patronising disinterest in answering a question. Some of us are very interested in trying to learn how it felt and feels now. I read the Estonian Lauri Vahtre's book on his experiences in what he calls the Absurd Empire, and he also made sure to many times say that Westerners will never understand, but at least he wrote the book anyway, even saying that he hopes his book will help stop something similar ever happening again.
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Re: Members' ages thread

Postby loqu » 2011-06-18, 8:35

Oleksij wrote:Same old 'they were not real communists' no-true-Scotsman argument. If they weren't, who was phone, then? As far as I'm concerned those are the only people in history who actually called themselves 'communist' and came to power - if you have an example of that utopian ideal that many leftists call 'real communism', please do share (interwar anarchist-ruled areas of Spain likely to be a candidate).

Well they call/called some of their countries 'democratic' (GDR, DPRK e.g.) and were they? You got the answer. I can call myself whatever I want, but the reality is another one.

And I don't have an example of that utopian ideal because it's certainly utopic. I doubt if it's achievable (I don't deny it though), but I certainly know it hasn't been done yet. Maybe because it's not possible. I must confess I was much more enthusiastic about communism years ago, nowadays I'm as skeptic on communism as I have always been on democracy.
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