Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby loqu » 2011-03-31, 3:43

God exploded in early times?

Catholicism has long supported evolution, but that news apparently haven't reached the US yet. In Europe, anti-evolutionism is seen as ridiculous even among most religious people.
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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby Varislintu » 2011-03-31, 11:14

ILuvEire wrote:I agree with the modern feminist movement, and I'm all for pro-choice marches. But I'm just surrounded by feminists that can't take a joke. Jesus christ, what's life if we can't laugh?


It's a good question. Perhaps because the fight is still ongoing, and because the traditional place of women has been to smile prettily and take whatever bad treatment comes their way. It's been the traditional role of women to have a sense of humour about their unfair treatment. I think that's why some feminists feel like they need to steer away from those reactions. Of course the resident looneys that are present in most movements are a category of their own...
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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby loqu » 2011-03-31, 12:59

I must say I kind of understand humourless feminists. Being such an activist of gay rights, I get offence most of the times on jokes about 'fags' (they are pretty common in Spain - and I use the word fag because you know, the jokes are not about 'gay people') because of the reasons Varislintu stated.
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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-03-31, 14:24

There is a difference when someone uses the term 'fag' and intends that as an insult, and when someone uses it jokingly.

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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby loqu » 2011-03-31, 14:29

I'm the opinion that you can't strip a word from all the bad connotations it has, just by having a good intention when using them.

Anyway jokes about fags are just ever-repeated stereotypes that have little to nothing to do with reality for most gays, but are told out of ignorance. I can't see what is so funny about that kind of jokes. And I guess women feel the same about jokes about women.
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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-03-31, 14:37

Making fun of stereotypes is the best way for people to realize how stupid they are. I don't get insulted by man-jokes, nor by ethnic jokes (I'm from an ethnically mixed Croatian/Serbian family and live in Serbia), because they center around stereotypes that I, and most people I socialize with, know aren't really true.

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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby księżycowy » 2011-03-31, 17:59

loqu wrote:I'm the opinion that you can't strip a word from all the bad connotations it has, just by having a good intention when using them.

Quite right. It can be more about how words are heard rather then said.

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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby mōdgethanc » 2011-03-31, 20:46

Some jokes just aren't topical or funny though.
I meant that I don't see the necessity of applying solipsism to it.

Believing in a deity is not about putting other beings' (or "minds'") existence in doubt.
Not really talking about that. You said "what is reality except to you?" or something to that effect. That's implying a heavy subjectivity. I'm casting doubt on that proposition.
I am. But I think I see Judaism more as a cultural practice. Maybe. I don't really know, honestly. I haven't really decided maybe? Hell if I know.
My ex-girlfriend was an agnostic who practiced Judaism (well, the important stuff) as a cultural thing. I went along with it 'cause it was kind of cool and I picked up some Hebrew* along the way.

*The real deal, not that barbarous mélange of words you call Israeli.

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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby księżycowy » 2011-03-31, 22:56

Talib wrote:Some jokes just aren't topical or funny though.

Agreed.

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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby ILuvEire » 2011-04-01, 4:02

As the word nigga has proved, words only have the power you give them. If you use them to oppress, then that's the power they have. But if use them as a term of unity, then that's the power they have.

FAGGOTS UNITE!
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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby Varislintu » 2011-04-01, 9:50

ILuvEire wrote:As the word nigga has proved, words only have the power you give them. If you use them to oppress, then that's the power they have. But if use them as a term of unity, then that's the power they have.

FAGGOTS UNITE!


I'm not sure I agree with you. If the only way I can deal with being called a whore/ho is to start calling myself and other women whores/hoes, then I still don't have a free choice and this is being forced on me. And I don't see why I should have to be forced to do anything.

(In Finland, it's becoming more common for young women (12-18) to be called "huora" (whore) by their male peers. Another thing they're supposed to have a sense of humour about, just to save face if anything.)
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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-04-01, 10:29

Being called a flicka or kvinna is also forced upon you, and you have no say in it..
The only way you can deal with being called a whore is by not taking it seriously. If, as you say, young people use the word huora for girl, in that particular sociolect huora simply means girl, nothing more.

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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby mōdgethanc » 2011-04-01, 10:55

As far as I know, flicka and kvinna aren't offensive. Why exactly is the onus on women to accept it instead of men to stop using it?

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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-04-01, 11:36

Men and women should be treated the same way, right?
At least here, it's not unusual for men to call other men insulting names without meaning to insult them. If you want to get your friend's attention you can call him a horse, an ape, an idiot, a faggot or a wide arrange of insults instead of merely calling him by his name. You can greet your friend for example with ''What's up, faggot?'', ''What's up, pussy?'' or ''Where have you been, you motherfucker, I haven't seen you in ages?''

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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby Varislintu » 2011-04-01, 12:18

Rumpetroll wrote:Being called a flicka or kvinna is also forced upon you, and you have no say in it..
The only way you can deal with being called a whore is by not taking it seriously. If, as you say, young people use the word huora for girl, in that particular sociolect huora simply means girl, nothing more.


No, not really. Flicka and kvinna are neutral words. The boys use huora because they've learned it from American hip hop culture, where it is definitely not something that just innocently sprung into use. It's not like the people who started this thing didn't know what whore means. It's part of a macho culture where men are supposed to be allowed to treat women as subserviant objects and pass judgement on them based on their sexuality.

Talib wrote:Why exactly is the onus on women to accept it instead of men to stop using it?


Exactly. Same with nigga and fag.

Rumpetroll wrote:Men and women should be treated the same way, right?
At least here, it's not unusual for men to call other men insulting names without meaning to insult them. If you want to get your friend's attention you can call him a horse, an ape, an idiot, a faggot or a wide arrange of insults instead of merely calling him by his name. You can greet your friend for example with ''What's up, faggot?'', ''What's up, pussy?'' or ''Where have you been, you motherfucker, I haven't seen you in ages?''


This is slightly different because men who call each other like this without there being real insult to the words are always on an equal power footing. If an athletic, popular male student calls a geeky, unpopular male student "faggot", it's no longer completely innocent. You really can't compare this to an exchange between a man and woman either, because a man cannot be a whore in our culture (unless he is gay), and by calling a woman a whore, a man is basically enforcing a power dynamic that is to his favour, not breaking it down by "using it reversely". (Unless of course we're talking about such close and familial relationships that both understand it's a joke that parodies a power dynamic they both oppose.)

I can't really think of a word that women might use to insult men specifically that would be backed up by our culture. I was going to use it as an example to ask you if you would feel comfortable with that, and whether you should start having a sense of humour about it. But it doesn't work because I can't think of a word that would enforce a traditionally unfair power dynamic in women's favour. If i picked something generic, like "dickhead", you still wouldn't feel the big deal because women have never subjugated men by viewing them as being dickheads.
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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-04-01, 12:57

Varislintu wrote:This is slightly different because men who call each other like this without there being real insult to the words are always on an equal power footing. If an athletic, popular male student calls a geeky, unpopular male student "faggot", it's no longer completely innocent.

Let's say that the two of them are friends.
A: Hey there, faggot, what are you doing?
B: What do you want, you stupid ape?
A: Nothing, I just wanted to ask you if you wanna hang out late?
B: Sure.

No problems.

I had long and wavy hair, and my 1.90 m tall, bald and bearded father would sometimes tell me I looked so cute, just like a little girl, but I didn't get insulted (even though it's clearly insulting for a man to be called a little girl) because I know he was merely teasing me.
Varislintu wrote:You really can't compare this to an exchange between a man and woman either, because a man cannot be a whore in our culture (unless he is gay), and by calling a woman a whore, a man is basically enforcing a power dynamic that is to his favour, not breaking it down by "using it reversely". (Unless of course we're talking about such close and familial relationships that both understand it's a joke that parodies a power dynamic they both oppose.)

I can't really think of a word that women might use to insult men specifically that would be backed up by our culture. I was going to use it as an example to ask you if you would feel comfortable with that, and whether you should start having a sense of humour about it. But it doesn't work because I can't think of a word that would enforce a traditionally unfair power dynamic in women's favour. If i picked something generic, like "dickhead", you still wouldn't feel the big deal because women have never subjugated men by viewing them as being dickheads.


How about pussy? Here it's kind of reserved for cowardly and feminine men. Faggot is also an insult for straight men. They target the male ego, as to make the man feel not manly enough.

''He screamed the last time he was confronted with a hornet. What a pussy!'' doesn't work for women. It's only insulting for men, because they are meant to be strong and brave, not to be intimidated by something like a hornet, whereas women are allowed to be scared.

And I'll say it once again, it depends on the woman who uses it and on the situation. If it's only meant as banter and the woman is someone I know I wouldn't be insulted, even though I might not find it particularly funny.

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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-04-01, 13:29

On the 'whore' thing. I remembered my sister (16) telling me about a boy from school, that she called, I quote, a man-whore. She and her female friends think that it is wrong for a man to have a different girlfriend each week.

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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby Varislintu » 2011-04-01, 13:56

Rumpetroll wrote:Let's say that the two of them are friends.


Then they are on an equal power footing.

Rumpetroll wrote:I had long and wavy hair, and my 1.90 m tall, bald and bearded father would sometimes tell me I looked so cute, just like a little girl, but I didn't get insulted (even though it's clearly insulting for a man to be called a little girl) because I know he was merely teasing me.


And a dad can call his daughter a whore, to tease her? It still isn't comparable.

Rumpetroll wrote:How about pussy? Here it's kind of reserved for cowardly and feminine men.


But the implied power dynamic is still man over not-as-man. Just the "coincidence" that the insult refers to a female part underlines this. You can't make it into a woman over man dynamic, because women have never held that kind of power of men. If a woman calls a man a pussy, she is actually insulting herself, or at least enforcing a traditional power dynamic where she is the loser (man over not-as-man)."Pussy" is an insult invented by men.

Rumpetroll wrote:Faggot is also an insult for straight men. They target the male ego, as to make the man feel not manly enough.


Again, women can't really call men a faggot very effectively, because they lose in it, as they are enforcing a power dynamic that goes man over not-as-man. It simply isn't as powerful coming out of their mouths as whore is coming out of a man's (targeted at women).

Rumpetroll wrote:''He screamed the last time he was confronted with a hornet. What a pussy!'' doesn't work for women. It's only insulting for men, because they are meant to be strong and brave, not to be intimidated by something like a hornet, whereas women are allowed to be scared.


To follow this line of thought, I think it's only allowed because women are viewed as lesser in power by default, thus not threatening men's power. Traditionally they're not allowed to be scared and equal in power. In recent times, it's getting more difficult to discern what is allowed. It is said that women in leading positions are allowed even less signs of empathy and lack of bravery than men in the same position. At the same time men are starting to feel more free to talk about emotions, including fears.

Rumpetroll wrote:And I'll say it once again, it depends on the woman who uses it and on the situation. If it's only meant as banter and the woman is someone I know I wouldn't be insulted, even though I might not find it particularly funny.


Here I agree with you, because this is essentially what I am saying, too. Being called whore by a friend with whom you have an understanding of what this action means is not insulting (it's consensual). Being called it without consent is usually not funny.

On the 'whore' thing. I remembered my sister (16) telling me about a boy from school, that she called, I quote, a man-whore. She and her female friends think that it is wrong for a man to have a different girlfriend each week.


If this at some point becomes our culture's view as well the insult may start to carry the same significance as it does for women now. But for the time being men are still more prestigeous if they sleep with many women.
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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-04-01, 14:31

Varislintu wrote:

But the implied power dynamic is still man over not-as-man. Just the "coincidence" that the insult refers to a female part underlines this. You can't make it into a woman over man dynamic, because women have never held that kind of power of men. If a woman calls a man a pussy, she is actually insulting herself, or at least enforcing a traditional power dynamic where she is the loser (man over not-as-man)."Pussy" is an insult invented by men.

Rumpetroll wrote:Faggot is also an insult for straight men. They target the male ego, as to make the man feel not manly enough.


Again, women can't really call men a faggot very effectively, because they lose in it, as they are enforcing a power dynamic that goes man over not-as-man. It simply isn't as powerful coming out of their mouths as whore is coming out of a man's (targeted at women).

Rumpetroll wrote:''He screamed the last time he was confronted with a hornet. What a pussy!'' doesn't work for women. It's only insulting for men, because they are meant to be strong and brave, not to be intimidated by something like a hornet, whereas women are allowed to be scared.


To follow this line of thought, I think it's only allowed because women are viewed as lesser in power by default, thus not threatening men's power. Traditionally they're not allowed to be scared and equal in power. In recent times, it's getting more difficult to discern what is allowed. It is said that women in leading positions are allowed even less signs of empathy and lack of bravery than men in the same position. At the same time men are starting to feel more free to talk about emotions, including fears.

That makes sense. I'm gonna have to agree with you.

Varislintu wrote:
Rumpetroll wrote:And I'll say it once again, it depends on the woman who uses it and on the situation. If it's only meant as banter and the woman is someone I know I wouldn't be insulted, even though I might not find it particularly funny.


Here I agree with you, because this is essentially what I am saying, too. Being called whore by a friend with whom you have an understanding of what this action means is not insulting (it's consensual). Being called it without consent is usually not funny.

Good. :)

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Re: Your core beliefs (religious/life phil/spiritual/ethical)

Postby loqu » 2011-04-01, 14:41

Rumpetroll wrote:Faggot is also an insult for straight men. They target the male ego, as to make the man feel not manly enough.

Which is also why it is insulting to us. So, just because we don't bang women we aren't men? Odd.
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