Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

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vijayjohn
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Re: Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-09-02, 2:55

Aurinĭa wrote:I think the mainstream view of religion in the USA and (Western) Europe is just so different, equipping us with a very different frame of reference, that it's difficult to understand each other without lengthy explanations.

I kind of get your point now about how it's possible to not be religious just out of apathy, but honestly, I think my frame of reference is more likely to be Indian culture than mainstream American culture. Both of my parents are atheist in no uncertain terms, but atheism is totally incomprehensible to the vast majority of Indians IME, including our own relatives, which often makes our interactions with them awkward. Not following traditions would just make things even more awkward. So from that point of view, you'd follow traditions because you're forced to, not because it's easier. I guess that's kind of why I didn't see your point immediately.
IpseDixit wrote:If we consider that Catholicism has quite strict rules about morality and sexuality, I really struggle to believe that someone might uncritically accept those rules without giving that some thought

I don't think I struggle to believe that at all. If that's all you ever hear, that's all you think exists; you think it's that way for everybody and therefore just normal. I mean, I'm not even Catholic, and until I joined UniLang (and stayed here for a while, read what other people had to say about stuff like this, and talked about it here), I used to think I had to abstain from sex until marriage, too, because otherwise, I could contract or help spread an STD or even get someone pregnant.

I was raised Catholic (more or less, my parents didn't really talk about religion), went to a Catholic school for kindergarten and secondary school, had Religion for all of it (Catholicism), and I never believed that. Neither did my parents, who were raised properly Catholic.

But was Catholicism all you were exposed to?
IpseDixit wrote:Honestly, I'm not sure what the purpose of this conversation is anymore.

Relax, we're just talking about religion! :D
I just wanted to say that iodalach's idea that if you haven't received a good education then you must be Catholic is untrue and unfair, and I know that for a fact because I personally know several people who barely have a high school diploma and are Atheist/Agnostic/vaguely Deist.

I have no problems with this position.
vijayjohn wrote:If that's all you ever hear, that's all you think exists; you think it's that way for everybody and therefore just normal.


In the context of Italian society, this is impossible unless you live like a prisoner in your house.

Oh, so kind of like me then? :P

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Re: Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

Postby Koko » 2016-09-02, 6:38

Christian weighing in here: most atheists i know don't actually care about grammar that much, unless they're making fun of me, while almost every Christian i know - myself included - are Grammar Nazis. Maybe in Italy this statement has some ground, but at least in Kamloops it seems to be the reverse.

(We're protestants, not catholics)

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Re: Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

Postby iodalach93 » 2016-09-02, 11:24

My bad, I didn't check my terminology either. With low-cultured I meant people who do not hold a high-school diploma and have a non-active knowledge of their faith or beliefs (i.e. those who usually justify themselves by saying "but I've been told so"). I did not mean to offend anyone, nor to sound snob. I come from a, as I would say, low-cultured Catholic family, and I take them as my evidence along with Facebook.

From my experience, you bother to define yourself an atheist only when you care enough to search for information about your faith or beliefs and you start to question them. Again, from my experience, if you do not care to question your religion and you passively accept all they tell you, you will mostly define yourself a Catholic. My parents never read the Bible, go to mass twice a year, hold opinions and behaviours which I deem as profoundly non-Catholic and non-Christian, yet they declare with pride that they're devout Catholics and look down on anyone who doesn't do the same. I don't even think that they know what "atheist" means.

It is not up to me to tell who's a Catholic and who isn't, I just find that many people who are not familiar with books and reading will just tell that they are what everyone else is and what sounds good to say, in many places in Italy this being "a devout Catholic". And I find people who are not used to read books or any kind of written material less aware of grammar and syntax of their own language, from my experience. That's what makes me think that the concept of "atheism" is embraced mostly by middle-cultured (i.e. holding at least a high-school diploma) or high-cultured (i.e. holding a degree), who mostly have a good command of written language, in contrast with low-cultured people (i.e. not holding any diploma or degree and not actively searching for information) who will mostly declare themselves to be devout Catholic and will be most likely to have their grammar corrected by atheists when discussing with them.

This is EMPIRICAL, I wrongly thought it worked for most of nowadays' Italians but it turns out it might work only in the context where I live.

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Re: Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-09-02, 13:47

iodalach93 wrote:I did not mean to offend anyone, nor to sound snob.

I don't think you did. You just proposed an idea that doesn't seem to hold up, that's all. :)
From my experience, you bother to define yourself an atheist only when you care enough to search for information about your faith or beliefs and you start to question them. Again, from my experience, if you do not care to question your religion and you passively accept all they tell you, you will mostly define yourself a Catholic.

This is somewhat similar to my own experience as well. Both of my parents originally self-identified as Christian when they were children and went to church, Sunday school, etc. For my dad, self-identifying as an atheist doesn't seem to have been an easy decision at all. For my mom, it was an easy decision to make, but for both of them, it's been hard to keep in the sense that a lot of people they've interacted with tried to convert them back (which never worked). Unsurprisingly, neither my brother nor I had a religious upbringing (I did briefly experiment with various religions as a child, but I don't think I really knew what I was doing :P); for us, atheism is probably the default option, though we've had relatives try to convert us back, too (so much so that I usually lie to them that I am Christian because I'm not interested in having a debate on religion with them. Since they are all also older than me, I find it very unlikely that they'd make much of an effort to listen to what I have to say for myself anyway).
This is EMPIRICAL, I wrongly thought it worked for most of nowadays' Italians but it turns out it might work only in the context where I live.

I think the term you're looking for might be "anecdotal" rather than "empirical."

iodalach93

Re: Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

Postby iodalach93 » 2016-09-02, 14:04

vijayjohn wrote:Unsurprisingly, neither my brother nor I had a religious upbringing (I did briefly experiment with various religions as a child, but I don't think I really knew what I was doing :P); for us, atheism is probably the default option, though we've had relatives try to convert us back, too (so much so that I usually lie to them that I am Christian because I'm not interested in having a debate on religion with them. Since they are all also older than me, I find it very unlikely that they'd make much of an effort to listen to what I have to say for myself anyway).

Same here, I tried maybe twice or three times to tell them that I am not a religious person and I don't identify as a Catholic and their faces said something like "The kid is telling bullshit again" or "It must be those bad friends he made at university". Also, since I study Arabic and I have a beard, I suspect some of my relatives fear I'll eventually convert to Islam and be a disgrace to them and the community.
vijayjohn wrote:I think the term you're looking for might be "anecdotal" rather than "empirical".

Thank you, vijayjohn, I was struggling to find the correct term. :)

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Re: Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

Postby Prowler » 2017-05-05, 18:49

Heh what a funny thread title.

...I'm an Atheist and I tend to notice blatant grammatical errors, even though I make them occasionally as well.

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Re: Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-05-05, 19:20

Heh that's an interesting topic. I'm a diehard atheist and I can be very touchy about bad use of language, both grammar and pronunciation (most Germans say "Lubya" instead of "Libya", argh). I'm a minority in equally educated circles though by valuing dialect and the sloppy grammar involved (my nazi grandfather believed all dialects should be suppressed in favour of standard German). I "forgive" much even if it rubs me the wrong way. Maybe I'm a closet grammar nazi.
Thank you for correcting mistakes!

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Re: Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

Postby linguoboy » 2017-05-05, 21:13

I don't think there's any correlation. And if there were, it would be nothing for atheists to brag about. It would just go to show that you don't need religion to be dogmatic.
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Re: Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-05-05, 21:30

Come on, let us be dogmatic about something too
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Re: Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

Postby linguoboy » 2017-05-05, 21:38

Knock yourselves out. And I'll mock y'all for it the same way militant atheists mock people for the naïveté of their religious beliefs.
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Re: Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

Postby kevin » 2017-05-06, 18:01

Babbsagg wrote:I'm a minority in equally educated circles though by valuing dialect and the sloppy grammar involved

I resent the notion that dialects have sloppy grammar. Their grammar isn't sloppy, but just different from the standard language.

(my nazi grandfather believed all dialects should be suppressed in favour of standard German)

A true grammar nazi then.

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Re: Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

Postby linguoboy » 2017-05-06, 18:08

kevin wrote:
Babbsagg wrote:I'm a minority in equally educated circles though by valuing dialect and the sloppy grammar involved

I resent the notion that dialects have sloppy grammar. Their grammar isn't sloppy, but just different from the standard language.

+1. I think the only thing which makes dialects seem "sloppy" is that dialect speakers are generally tolerant of natural variation whereas standard grammar norms are enforced by authoritative sources which have to declare every possibility "acceptable" or "unacceptable" without much acknowledgment of grey areas.
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Re: Atheists are more likely to be grammar nazis

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-05-06, 19:58

Yes you're right (and I'm aware of it), I guess I should have put the word in quotation marks. What I wanted to say is that it's "sloppy" from the Standard German point of view, or should I say, frowned upon by the true grammar nazis who claim that everything not following Standard German rules is incorrect. I guess it was my comment that was sloppy.
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