Light Bulb Ban [split]

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
User avatar
TeneReef
Posts: 3073
Joined: 2010-04-17, 23:22
Gender: male
Location: Kampor
Country: HR Croatia (Hrvatska)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby TeneReef » 2012-11-06, 20:44

Sophie wrote:Anyone for sodium-vapour lamps? They don't produce melatonin-suppressing blue light, and the low-pressure sodium lamp, in particular, has the highest luminous efficacy of all lamps invented so far. In terms of cost, sodium lamps also appear to be cheaper than incandescent lamps according to this.



They look warm, and have a certain coziness factor.
विकृतिः एवम्‌ प्रकृति
learning in 2019: (no-nn)

User avatar
MillMaths
Posts: 11897
Joined: 2011-06-15, 9:15
Real Name: George Law
Gender: male
Location: London
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)
Contact:

Re: Light bulb ban

Postby MillMaths » 2012-12-03, 13:37

US researchers say they have developed a new type of lighting that could replace fluorescent bulbs.

The new source is made from layers of plastic and is said to be more efficient while producing a better quality of flicker-free light.

The scientists behind it say they believe the first units will be produced in 2013.


User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-12-04, 17:13

Sophie wrote:US researchers say they have developed a new type of lighting

But will it give as much heat as lightbulbs? One major disadvantage with low energy lamps is that they do not heat as much as classical lightbulbs.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

User avatar
MillMaths
Posts: 11897
Joined: 2011-06-15, 9:15
Real Name: George Law
Gender: male
Location: London
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)
Contact:

Re: Light bulb ban

Postby MillMaths » 2012-12-05, 14:30

Why would you want your light bulbs to produce heat? :shock: A light bulb is supposed to produce light, not heat. All the heat generated by a light bulb is waste energy; the more heat produced, the less efficient the bulb.

BTW, a few posts ago I said something about sodium-vapour lamps and their high luminous efficacy. I've now found out that the chief drawback is that under sodium-vapour lighting colours are practically indistinguishable. Use of sodium-vapour lamps is therefore restricted to instances where colours are not as important as visibility.

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-12-06, 18:50

Sophie wrote:Why would you want your light bulbs to produce heat? A light bulb is supposed to produce light, not heat. All the heat generated by a light bulb is waste energy; the more heat produced, the less efficient the bulb.

My house is cold in winter, and it feels better if it gets a little warmer when using the lamps.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

ling
Posts: 828
Joined: 2012-05-03, 9:09
Gender: male
Country: TW Taiwan (臺灣)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby ling » 2012-12-07, 12:32

Living in a subtropical climate, I'm glad the fluorescent twisty bulbs don't produce much heat. They are also far more efficient than old incandescent bulbs and save on the electricity bill, not to mention conserve our energy resources. I'm all about saving energy.
Native: [flag=]en[/flag] Advanced: [flag=]zh[/flag] Actively studying: [flag=]th[/flag][flag=]id[/flag] Passively dabbling: [flag=]lkt[/flag]

User avatar
JackFrost
Forum Administrator
Posts: 16240
Joined: 2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name: Jack Frost
Gender: male
Location: Montréal, Québec
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby JackFrost » 2012-12-07, 17:31

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:My house is cold in winter, and it feels better if it gets a little warmer when using the lamps.

You'd be using energy better if you get a better heating system or a portable heater. :?
Neferuj paħujkij!

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-12-08, 19:33

JackFrost wrote:You'd be using energy better if you get a better heating system or a portable heater.

I have actually bought a cast iron stove from the Danish manufacturer Morsø:
http://www.morsoe.com/Mors%C3%B8-3640-1579.aspx

It was designed for the North American market, where things are huge, and it was called "the monster".

The weight, 220 kg, makes it rather non-portable, though.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

User avatar
ILuvEire
Posts: 10398
Joined: 2007-12-08, 17:41
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby ILuvEire » 2012-12-09, 0:03

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
JackFrost wrote:You'd be using energy better if you get a better heating system or a portable heater.

I have actually bought a cast iron stove from the Danish manufacturer Morsø:
http://www.morsoe.com/Mors%C3%B8-3640-1579.aspx

It was designed for the North American market, where things are huge, and it was called "the monster".

The weight, 220 kg, makes it rather non-portable, though.
Good lord that thing is massive.
[flag]de[/flag] [flag]da[/flag] [flag]fr-qc[/flag] [flag]haw[/flag] [flag]he[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]
Current focus: [flag]ga[/flag] [flag]ar[/flag]
Facebook | tumblr | Twitter
“We need to make books cool again. If you go home with somebody and they don't have books, don't fuck them.” —John Waters

User avatar
JackFrost
Forum Administrator
Posts: 16240
Joined: 2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name: Jack Frost
Gender: male
Location: Montréal, Québec
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby JackFrost » 2012-12-09, 3:43

Fire heat > light bulb heat.
Neferuj paħujkij!

User avatar
ainurakne
Posts: 700
Joined: 2012-02-16, 22:09
Gender: male
Country: EE Estonia (Eesti)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby ainurakne » 2012-12-13, 11:14

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:But will it give as much heat as lightbulbs? One major disadvantage with low energy lamps is that they do not heat as much as classical lightbulbs.
...
My house is cold in winter, and it feels better if it gets a little warmer when using the lamps.
Have you tried LED lamps. Nowadays many of them even use heat sinks to dissipate heat (since they have become so powerful that the diodes tend to overheat - and they do not tolerate overheating). But LEDs seem to not radiate much heat, I guess they mostly only warm the air via heatsinks.

How about halogen lamps (though they are also incandescent lamps, but more energy efficient)? Are they also banned in Sweden already?
They radiate quite much heat, especially those little spotlights (although these may not fit in regular Edison sockets) - you can really warm your hands under them.
Eesti keel (et) native, English (en) I can manage, Suomi (fi) trying to learn, Pусский (ru)&Deutsch (de) unfortunately, slowly fading away

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-12-13, 17:04

ainurakne wrote:Have you tried LED lamps. Nowadays many of them even use heat sinks to dissipate heat (since they have become so powerful that the diodes tend to overheat - and they do not tolerate overheating). But LEDs seem to not radiate much heat, I guess they mostly only warm the air via heatsinks.

How about halogen lamps (though they are also incandescent lamps, but more energy efficient)? Are they also banned in Sweden already?

I have several types of lamps, but that is not the point. The problem is that a small group of wicked lobbyists have made the EU top-down decide to forbid some things, without any input from the people, and our ruling cliques have gone along with this, under the pretext of saving energy, which it does not do. Accordingly, I am protesting by having hoarded lightbulbs. :evil:

No lamps are banned, but the selected types are not allowed to be manufactured or imported any more, and you can still buy already existing stocks, until they run out. :(

Afterwards, perhaps one could have a secret production of lightbulbs in isolated farmsteads, where the law does not reach. :twisted:

I was not aware that LED-lamps became warm. :shock:

The most energy-demanding halogen lamps have been taken out along with the lightbulbs, but some of them will still be around in the future, I think, but I have not read up on this for some time. :|
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

User avatar
Johanna
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 6552
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Johanna » 2012-12-13, 18:15

On the other hands, classic light bulbs generate heat even when you don't want any, like in warm summer nights. Looking at it that way, it's better to use your building's heating system when you feel it's needed :)
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-12-13, 20:24

Johanna wrote:On the other hands, classic light bulbs generate heat even when you don't want any, like in warm summer nights. Looking at it that way, it's better to use your building's heating system when you feel it's needed :)

Summer nights in Sweden are very short, and you can choose another lightsource, so that would not be a huge problem.

Why should we not be allowed to use lightbulbs if we want to? We are still free to waste as much energy as we pay for, just not on lightbulbs. This time of year, the Christmas season, means that each and every house looks as if "national lampoon" is living there, with lights everywhere.

Should candles be forbidden as well? And the paper that is put on Christmas gifts?

There was absolutely no rational reason for forbidding lightbulbs. People should have been given the opportunity to make individual choices about their lighting, and then the lightbulbs would have gone off the market if people did not want to use such anymore, without ridiculous legislation.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

User avatar
JackFrost
Forum Administrator
Posts: 16240
Joined: 2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name: Jack Frost
Gender: male
Location: Montréal, Québec
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby JackFrost » 2012-12-13, 21:19

There is a reason already pointed out earlier in this thread: to lower the CO2 output (and so on) required to keep those bulbs lit. There is one thing you don't really have the right to: polluting the environment at the expense of the others just so that you could get a bit of wasteful heat from the inefficient bulbs. That's just selfish of you. Sorry.

Summer nights in Sweden are very short, and you can choose another lightsource, so that would not be a huge problem.

If it involves only you, it wouldn't be. But when it comes to a country of over nine million, using low-energy bulbs would make quite a difference to lessen the burden on the power plants to produce electricity to keep the bulbs lit. Even more so when the whole EU and US are doing the same thing.

Should candles be forbidden as well? And the paper that is put on Christmas gifts?

Don't be absurd.

Sometimes it baffles me how some people are so thickheaded towards some things that both save them money and are friendlier to the environment.
Neferuj paħujkij!

User avatar
ainurakne
Posts: 700
Joined: 2012-02-16, 22:09
Gender: male
Country: EE Estonia (Eesti)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby ainurakne » 2012-12-13, 22:43

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:I have several types of lamps, but that is not the point. The problem is that a small group of wicked lobbyists have made the EU top-down decide to forbid some things, without any input from the people, and our ruling cliques have gone along with this, under the pretext of saving energy, which it does not do. Accordingly, I am protesting by having hoarded lightbulbs. :evil:
Yes, I can understand you, we've got pretty much the same situation here (in Estonia). I remember, when it all began, then the quality of LEDs (especially the quality of light they emitted) was quite poor - or at least the ones that were available here, and were affordable, were crappy. So CFLs were pretty much the only option - but damn they don't last very long when frequently switched on and off - so they burn out in just couple of months, or at least the control electronics or starter or whaever's in them does, and you can't just chop them up to replace individual parts (or at least it would be quite pointless).

So, since most of the lamps that had CFLs were frequently swithed, we had to "optimize" our movement between the rooms and every time when someone left the room and wanted to turn off the light he/she had to first make sure that noone else will not visit that room any time soon - that was quite ridiculous, but well, they are expensive.

Now we've got only LEDs - they are quite OK, not always ideal, but what can you do.


Interestingly those old fluorescent tubes are really reliable - they last for years - and then what fails is usually that little starter-thingy which is separate from the tube itself.
Eesti keel (et) native, English (en) I can manage, Suomi (fi) trying to learn, Pусский (ru)&Deutsch (de) unfortunately, slowly fading away

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-12-14, 21:45

JackFrost wrote:Sometimes it baffles me how some people are so thickheaded towards some things that both save them money and are friendlier to the environment.

It is not a large amount of money. If I use a 60 W bulb for 8 hours a day, 200 days a year, then I waste 96 kWh a year. My cost per kWh was 1,03 Swedish crowns, so that energy cost me 99 Swedish crowns (roughly 15 USD or 11,5 Euro).

A bulb nominally lasts for 1000 hours, and the above yearly lighting time was 1600 hours, so I have to replace 1,6 bulbs. Their price varied, and I bought some recently for only 2,5 crowns a piece, but let us say that I bought them for 8 crowns, as was more normal back in the day. Then another 13 crowns went, so I am back 112 crowns for my yearly lighting sessions, which is a very small amount.

If I had been more environmental, as suggested in the quote, I could have bought a lamp with mercury, an otherwise forbidden substance due to its lethal characteristics, instead, for 29 crowns, which gives the same level of light for only 15 watts. This one officially lasts for 10000 hours, and if we assume that it is true, then we get a yearly lamp cost at 5 crowns, while the energy costs 25 crowns, so I have saved 82 crowns a year.

Unfortunately, this second lamp gives me a headache, so I cannot use it close by me. When it has gone asunder, then I will have to put it into the lamp recycling system, if it is working by then. Only half the lamps are recycled, while the rest are lost in nature, adding to the bad things humans leave behind. They are aiming for phasing out the mercury lamps in the coming years, but at the time lightbulbs were banned, LED lights were not yet available.

My yearly electricity consumption is 17191 kWh, and lighting is apparently only 0,6 % of that.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

User avatar
johnklepac
Posts: 2809
Joined: 2012-12-06, 2:18
Real Name: Your Onions
Gender: male
Location: Chicago/Southwest Ohio
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby johnklepac » 2013-02-28, 1:20

I do think the process should've been more democratic, as has been echoed here, but personally I support the ban, though a lot more needs to be done in its same vein.

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2013-02-28, 18:12

johnklepac wrote:I do think the process should've been more democratic, as has been echoed here, but personally I support the ban, though a lot more needs to be done in its same vein.

There is no reason whatsoever to ban lightbulbs. If you want to consume less energy, then introduce rationing or higher prices or something else that might have some effect, instead of oppressing people.

How many kWh a year would every person be allowed to consume?
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7549
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby md0 » 2013-02-28, 18:26

I don't find it oppressive at all, but if there was such strong opposition (which there isn't), I'd go with a law similar to car ownership tax, where older, inefficient models cost more to own than the newer, more efficient and environment-friendly.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)Elementary Finnish (fi)
For fun: Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest