Light Bulb Ban [split]

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ILuvEire
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Re: legalize all drugs

Postby ILuvEire » 2010-12-31, 3:29

Oh fuck me, this again?
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Re: legalize all drugs

Postby Formiko » 2010-12-31, 3:43

ILuvEire wrote:Oh fuck me, this again?

Can we split this thread? Whenever ILE says that, it's a sign to split :)
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Re: legalize all drugs

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2010-12-31, 7:41

Formiko wrote:
ILuvEire wrote:Oh fuck me, this again?

Can we split this thread? Whenever ILE says that, it's a sign to split :)


Unilang seems a little lax on the splitting, currently, judging from the many active threads with totally diverged topics. Perhaps too low-staffed?
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: legalize all drugs

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2010-12-31, 8:30

Yasha wrote:I thought that Sweden is a country that spends a lot of money on social welfare. If you were the one deciding government policy, what changes would you pursue, and how would you go about doing this?

The Swedish government spends a lot of money, but it is done in an inefficient way that gives very little in return.

For example, Finland has a strong military force. Sweden spends twice as much on its armed forces as Finland does, yet Sweden has almost no military capacity at all. It could not defend itself if it were attacked.

Many things are allowed to decay since they would need people to upkeep them, and people cost to much. At the same time, many on the bottomside of society are living on social welfare, costing money without achieving anything. Often they are forced to do something from time to time, to keep the payments, but not something that is productive and meaningful, just something that fulfils the bureaucratic demands.

The government consists of top-run political parties with diminishing member cadres, and they do not listen to the people nor care about the people.

Now, if I were the Swedish Lenin (well by descent he actually was a Swede, and a German, and a Kalmuck, and a Chebysh, and a Jew, but not a Russian) what would I do? I got that question by the examiner when my Master's thesis was discussed, "what would you do if you were the dictator of Sweden?", and that is a little mean, with no preparations at all. What would I say? At that time, the question was about the Swedish spelling. This time you ask about the economical and social system. I do have a lot of items to comment, but it takes a lot of effort writing forum posts.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: legalize all drugs

Postby Varislintu » 2010-12-31, 8:46

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Unilang seems a little lax on the splitting, currently, judging from the many active threads with totally diverged topics. Perhaps too low-staffed?


No, we're not understaffed, we're just lax. (No sarcasm.) But I can split it since you ask so nicely ;).
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Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2010-12-31, 9:14

Varislintu wrote:But I can split it since you ask so nicely ;)

Formiko asked, I only commented. And this thread was not that far off, between drugs and lightbulbs and Sweden. Not as the hygiene and origins and weather threads.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Varislintu » 2010-12-31, 9:23

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Formiko asked, I only commented.


I know, it was the other kind of 'you' that I used.

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:And this thread was not that far off, between drugs and lightbulbs and Sweden. Not as the hygiene and origins and weather threads.


Splitting long threads is a pain with our current interface so that's also one reason we don't always spontaneously do it (the other reason being that threads are such chaotic devices they are difficult to split neatly -- I almost called this thread "Light Bulbs and the Swedish Political System", to illustrate). But you can always spur us on by asking ;).

EDIT: I split Hygiene and Origins but I can't make sense out of Weather so I'm going to leave it :hmhihi:.
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Re: legalize all drugs

Postby hlysnan » 2010-12-31, 10:20

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Now, if I were the Swedish Lenin (well by descent he actually was a Swede, and a German, and a Kalmuck, and a Chebysh, and a Jew, but not a Russian) what would I do? I got that question by the examiner when my Master's thesis was discussed, "what would you do if you were the dictator of Sweden?", and that is a little mean, with no preparations at all. What would I say? At that time, the question was about the Swedish spelling. This time you ask about the economical and social system. I do have a lot of items to comment, but it takes a lot of effort writing forum posts.


Whenever you feel like answering then. No pressure.

Actually, I'm also interested to know what you think about Swedish spelling. Perhaps in another thread someday.

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Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Oleksij » 2010-12-31, 18:44

Fluorescent lamps are crap. They are potentially toxic (mercury vapour) and unlikely to even start in sub-zero temperatures (implying all European countries are tropical or Mediterranean). Well done, EU. :roll:
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Re: legalize all drugs

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-12-31, 20:34

While I think this is slightly silly and people will probably switch to more efficient LEDs on their own, I will say one thing: there is no right to pollute.
I think that this is the most common term to describe Western countries. What then, in your opinion, would constitute a liberal democracy?
A constitution granting a variety of rights especially but not only freedom of speech, association and the right to vote. Most importantly, a strong judiciary to uphold them.
In Sweden today, the government acts to give people inequal opportunities, and there is gross incompetence and mismanagement on all levels (did I not write that a few days ago?) by self serving persons in positions of power. The government does not act for the common good, instead it is merely upholding some structures in a decaying society. There is no goal to reach, everything is just being in a state of laissez-faire, where nothing is achieved except spending government money and making the social inequalities larger.
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Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby JackFrost » 2010-12-31, 23:33

Oleksij wrote:Fluorescent lamps are crap. They are potentially toxic (mercury vapour) and unlikely to even start in sub-zero temperatures (implying all European countries are tropical or Mediterranean). Well done, EU. :roll:

It's never an issue turning them on in any temperature and there are CFLs made for outdoor uses.

As for mercury, CFLs reduce the overall emission and according to the US government, the CLFs due to be produced per year would only represent 0.13% of the total emission. You probably get more mercury in you from eating fish than from broken CFL bulbs.
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Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Cosi » 2011-01-01, 14:17

JackFrost wrote:Lightblubs... The government forbade people from using CFC in aerosol cans and fridges, so what is the difference between the two? None. Both are damaging to the environment.

Oleksij wrote:Fluorescent lamps are crap. They are potentially toxic (mercury vapour)

That's one point. Besides, lightbulbs were taken into account in the energy balance of the households - in cold and moderate climate they act as heaters (yes!). When you replace them with fluorescent lamps, you need to turn up your heaters.

JackFrost wrote:As for mercury, CFLs reduce the overall emission and according to the US government, the CLFs due to be produced per year would only represent 0.13% of the total emission. You probably get more mercury in you from eating fish than from broken CFL bulbs.

It's not a problem of "broken CFL bulbs". It's about tons of them on waste piles. And that's much more than the amount of mercury you get eating fish.

European Comission chose fluorescent lamps instead of incandescent lightbulbs because of the emission of CO2, but meanwhile they banned mercury thermometers because of... mercury :|
I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, but there are two major CFL manufacturers in the EU - Osram and Philips. And the era of these lamps is slowly passing - soon they will be replaced by LED lamps...

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Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby JackFrost » 2011-01-01, 19:10

The waste pile has been factored in in the US government study. CFL emission will still be at 0.1% of the total when accounting that as well. Note that incandescent bulbs produce (indirectly) more mercury than CFLs because the electricity may be connected to mercury-producing power plants. So it's not only aiming to reduce the CO2 output from these plants, but also the mercury one as well.

I used the US as an example because of its large population and position as the world's second country producing the most emissions. The study says 270 million bulbs would be produced, using 0.13 metric ton of mercury (104 metric tons are produced in the US each year). A CFL bulb would make 1.8 mg of mercury during its lifetime (also accounting its escape to the environment in landfills) whereas an incandescent bulb would make 5.8 mg throughout its lifetime (mercury comes from power plants).

That means it reduces the overall mercury emission into the environment when switching to CFLs, so it lessens our exposure to it. We may be exposed to a very small amount of mercury from bulbs per year whereas seafood, we consume it more than that (in general).

It is preventable to keep those bulbs from going into landfills and it is actually banned for people to do that in the EU and some US states. With the cost of a bulb, a recycling fee is added in so that you can properly dispose the used bulbs at a specialized container at stores or wherever it is available. We already do that for batteries, old electronics, etc.

As for the heat thing, you're partially right, but using it as a heating source is actually considered to be a waste of energy in some common scenarios as well. We don't really need heat during springs and summers when we usually keep our heaters shut off then. The "more heating needed" effect could be balanced out in the EU and the US with warmer regions seeing the benefits of using less power for the air conditioning system (they're quite an energy hog). because CFLs are much "cooler", thus less strain on the cooling system in places like the American West and South, Italy, Spain, southern France, Australia, etc. Less AC needed, less electricity, CO2, and mercury needed.

It's still a relatively new technology. Overtime, it's efficiency will improve and who knows that in the future, we'll find a way making good bulbs without needing to use mercury. Making things eco-friendly does not always mean they will not at all harm the environment, but they would lessen significantly the damages to it. That's pretty much the case for CLF bulbs.
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Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Cosi » 2011-01-01, 20:15

JackFrost wrote:Note that incandescent bulbs produce (indirectly) more mercury than CFLs because the electricity may be connected to mercury-producing power plants.

Well, you haven't convinced me... AFAIK, mercury (and other heavy metals) is caught by the filters - and we're talking only about coal plants; gas, nuclear, wind, solar and water power plants don't emit it. So your statistics may be right only for coal plants without filters.

As for CO2, I get mad when I hear that carbon dioxide is the root of all evil. Such approach can lead to absurds such as cutting rainforests for bio-fuel crops. CO2 is only one of the greenhouse gases, not necessarily having the major effect. In my humble opinion, there are worse threats - e.g. unprotected waste piles, phosphates or wasteful exploitation of oil - that are neglected because the focus is put on CO2 emission.

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Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-01-01, 20:27

Lighting is such a small part of the energy comsumption, and why should I use less energy for light just because I no longer can use lightbulbs?

A more sound idea would be to ban refrigerators that cool and freeze when the outside temperature is equally low or even lower - It feels so ridiculous to heat a room, and then place a refrigerator inside the warm room, and constantly open the door to the refrigerator, so the cold air seeps into the room, and the warm air goes into the refrigerator, using lots and lots of electric energy, and the outside temperature might be many degrees below zero. In a cold climate, such as the Swedish, much could be done about this.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby JackFrost » 2011-01-01, 20:36

A more sound idea would be to ban refrigerators that cool and freeze when the outside temperature is equally low or even lower

Canadians are already ahead of you all.

Out of fridge space? No problem, just leave your beer outside on the balcony.

Anyways, a flaw... We don't want people to steal food. Especially beer.

We don't want to attract the wildlife and then become dependant on humans for food.

Hence why we have fridges. :mrgreen:

To get to the real point, energy saving measures will be always be hypercritical. That's normal, just like any other measures.
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Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby lumiel » 2011-01-02, 10:15

JackFrost wrote:Canadians are already ahead of you all.

Out of fridge space? No problem, just leave your beer outside on the balcony.

Oh honey, what do you think we did up here in the cold North before fridges became common? :wink:

Anyway, it's quite common here to put your drinks outside, especially at parties, since it's usually colder outside and fridges are always full.
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Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Siegel » 2011-01-02, 16:42

i just put my drinks on the floor haha. its usually cold enough :D (but in the summer outside)
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Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Hunef » 2011-01-02, 20:26

lumiel wrote:
JackFrost wrote:Canadians are already ahead of you all.

Out of fridge space? No problem, just leave your beer outside on the balcony.

Oh honey, what do you think we did up here in the cold North before fridges became common? :wink:

Where I live we used to have root cellars rather than simply putting food and stuff outdoors for people and animals to scavenge it. :roll: (In fact, root cellars are still used and built here to some extent, such as e.g. this modern concrete version produced by some company in the northeastern part of my province.

EDIT: Wait a minute, did I just post in the Politics & Religion forum? This can't be good. :?
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Re: Light Bulb Ban [split]

Postby Formiko » 2011-01-03, 7:19

Hunef wrote:Where I live we used to have root cellars rather than simply putting food and stuff outdoors for people and animals to scavenge it. :roll:

That makes a lot of sense.
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