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Re: Abortion

Posted: 2014-11-22, 18:04
by Massimiliano B
Massimiliano B wrote:Interesting article:

http://www.jpands.org/vol18no2/calhoun.pdf

ABSTRACT
Introduction
National data on maternal and neonatal health sequelae over
more than 40 years of legal elective abortion in jurisdictions of
Great Britain are compared with data from the abortion-averse
jurisdictions of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Both
Irish jurisdictions show more favorable data than the British. The
Republic of Ireland has a maternal mortality rate over the last
decade of 3/100,000 compared with about 6/100,000 in England
and Wales; a stillbirth rate in 2010 of 3.8/1,000 live births
compared 5.1/1,000 live births in Great Britain; and a preterm (<
37 weeks) birth rate in 2010 of 42.7/1,000 live births compared
with 48/1,000 in England and Wales and 72/1,000 in Scotland.
Legal elective abortion is associated with higher rates of maternal
mortality rates, stillbirth rates, and preterm birth
. Cerebral palsy
rates in Northern Ireland, at a prevalence rate for birth years 1981-
2007 of 2.3 per 1,000 live births (95% CI, 2.2-2.5), are low.



Do you think it's a serious research?

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2014-11-24, 18:57
by Varislintu
Massimiliano B wrote:Do you think it's a serious research?
[/quote]

What do you mean by 'serious'? And do you think it is? And do you think these kinds of findings are relevant to whether abortion should be legal or not, or just to whether people should have abortions or not?

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2014-11-25, 10:28
by Massimiliano B
Where abortion is illegal, maternal mortality rate is not higher than in countries where abortion is legal. Usually, people say the opposite.

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2014-11-25, 12:53
by IpseDixit
Massimiliano B wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:Interesting article:

http://www.jpands.org/vol18no2/calhoun.pdf

ABSTRACT
Introduction
National data on maternal and neonatal health sequelae over
more than 40 years of legal elective abortion in jurisdictions of
Great Britain are compared with data from the abortion-averse
jurisdictions of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Both
Irish jurisdictions show more favorable data than the British. The
Republic of Ireland has a maternal mortality rate over the last
decade of 3/100,000 compared with about 6/100,000 in England
and Wales; a stillbirth rate in 2010 of 3.8/1,000 live births
compared 5.1/1,000 live births in Great Britain; and a preterm (<
37 weeks) birth rate in 2010 of 42.7/1,000 live births compared
with 48/1,000 in England and Wales and 72/1,000 in Scotland.
Legal elective abortion is associated with higher rates of maternal
mortality rates, stillbirth rates, and preterm birth
. Cerebral palsy
rates in Northern Ireland, at a prevalence rate for birth years 1981-
2007 of 2.3 per 1,000 live births (95% CI, 2.2-2.5), are low.



Do you think it's a serious research?


I'm a bit baffled by that.

Unsafe abortion is not the only cause of maternal death. For example, according to WHO, in 2014 only 8% of maternal deaths have been caused by unsafe abortions, globally. So technically Ireland could've done worse in preventing deaths for unsafe abortions and better in preventing other causes of maternal death thus getting a better overall result than Britain.

So I'm quite taken aback by the fact that they can claim that "legal elective abortion is associated with higher rates of maternal mortality rates, stillbirth rates, and preterm birth", how can they prove that it's only abortion and not some other factor which should be associated with a higher maternal death rate in Britain?

Moreover what does "associated" mean in this context? It's quite an ambiguous formula... I think we all know that "correlation does not imply causation", and usually most of statistical models can only show correlation, whereas it's much more difficult to identify causation.

Where abortion is illegal, maternal mortality rate is not higher than in countries where abortion is legal. Usually, people say the opposite.


I'm not sure 2 countries which have relatively similar life standards, are both western indutrialized nations and have many other things in common, are a good sample representative of all the countries on Earth.

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2014-11-25, 19:51
by Massimiliano B
I've quoted and read only the abstract. Maybe the whole article can answer your questions.

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2014-11-26, 20:00
by IpseDixit
Massimiliano B wrote:I've quoted and read only the abstract. Maybe the whole article can answer your questions.


Why did you say "interesting article" if you haven't even read it?

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2014-11-26, 23:42
by Massimiliano B
"Interesting article" from what I can read in the abstract! :)

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2014-12-09, 4:01
by Prowler
I'm for abortion. And regardless of what naysayers say, most people don't view abortion as a contraceptive method or as a second plan. Any woman who's had an abortion before will tell you that it was far from being a pleasant experience and that she'll never want to go through it again.

Another argument against abortion I don't get is being against it even in case of rape. Sure, the child isn't at fault, but neither is the victim(the mother). Why should she be forced to give birth to someone she never wanted in the first place who was a result of a very traumatic experience? You're basically punishing the victim instead of helping her.

And even if a woman gets pregnant from consensual sex what would be the point of having a child if she doesn't have the financial conditions to raise her? "Oh, she should have thought of that, then!" people against abortion will say. But the point is, why should the future child have to pay for her progenitors' mistake? Does the world really need another child growing up poor in a nasty neighborhood and most likely ending up a criminal? People need to be responsible when having sex(tell that to millions of teenagers all over the world lol) but forcing them to raise a child when they don't have proper means to do so isn't gonna do them nor and much less the child any good.

I'm sure there's a few women who abort simply because they don't want a child at all. Hell it's probably pretty common that protection has failed. Yet, I still believe they have the right to abort. And making abortion illegal just because a few people take advantage of it is an absurd idea, anyway.

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2016-04-05, 15:27
by Varislintu
Ah, the Catholic church is showing its love for women in Poland. It wants even tighter abortion laws, as it thinks the current Polish laws allowing abortion when the pregnancy is life threatening to the woman, when it's been caused by a crime like rape, and when the fetus will be severely disfigured, give way too much choice to women over their health and bodies.

In response, I think there should be a law requiring all men to run into burning buildings to save people inside, because not risking their life to save someone else is just wrong, and such selfishness needs to be criminalised. The men's families will just have to suck it up.

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2016-04-05, 15:55
by Car
Nah, we'd have far too many men whining about discrimination then. Make it apply for everyone and we'll see enough outcry about it already.

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2016-04-05, 16:01
by Varislintu
Car wrote:Nah, we'd have far too many men whining about discrimination then. Make it apply for everyone and we'll see enough outcry about it already.


True, I guess we could just go for the obligatory liver donations. Comply or be prosecuted for murder. Oh, it's inconvenient for you to donate right now? Your financials, health, career, family, or mental health might suffer? Well I'm sooo soorry but we all have to sacrifice a little in the name of ethics.

/here be sarcasm

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2016-04-05, 16:20
by vijayjohn
Varislintu wrote:Ah, the Catholic church is showing its love for women in Poland. It wants even tighter abortion laws, as it thinks the current Polish laws allowing abortion when the pregnancy is life threatening to the woman, when it's been caused by a crime like rape, and when the fetus will be severely disfigured, give way too much choice to women over their health and bodies.

I know we have a history of immigration from certain parts of Eastern Europe, but sometimes, it strikes me how much parts of Eastern Europe can be like Texas.

EDIT: Oh, and just to be clear, Texas is definitely not what any country should strive to emulate!

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2016-04-05, 16:47
by Varislintu
vijayjohn wrote:
Varislintu wrote:Ah, the Catholic church is showing its love for women in Poland. It wants even tighter abortion laws, as it thinks the current Polish laws allowing abortion when the pregnancy is life threatening to the woman, when it's been caused by a crime like rape, and when the fetus will be severely disfigured, give way too much choice to women over their health and bodies.

I know we have a history of immigration from certain parts of Eastern Europe, but sometimes, it strikes me how much parts of Eastern Europe can be like Texas.

EDIT: Oh, and just to be clear, Texas is definitely not what any country should strive to emulate!


Yeah, it's pretty horrible in many US states from what I hear through my blogroll. Absolute contempt for women's reproductive health. And women can get prosecuted in the US for homicide if they fall under suspicion of having committed an illegal abortion -- I didn't fully realise that until I read about it recently. I knew it happened in Central and South America, of course.

It's interesting now with the growing Zika virus threat. I read about how the Rubella epidemic in the USA back in the 60s (when abortion was illegal) changed public opinion to be a bit more understanding towards abortion, since it suddenly gave a white, middle and upper class face to what people thought was a "legitimate" need for access to legal and safe abortion services. (Poor and non-white women deserve to die in illegal abortion facilities, after all, those immoral sluts.) There are apparently hopes that Zika will pressure the strictest Central and South American countries to make their abortion laws a bit more humane.

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2016-04-05, 17:15
by vijayjohn
It's so bad down here that I'm not sure I should ever bother trying to lose my virginity to a woman as long as I'm still living in Texas. Why risk forcing some poor woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy?

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2016-04-05, 17:33
by Varislintu
vijayjohn wrote:It's so bad down here that I'm not sure I should ever bother trying to lose my virginity to a woman as long as I'm still living in Texas. Why risk forcing some poor woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy?


I know you're just being a decent human being, but I'm still gladdened that you're considering that. And it shows how much this isn't just a women's issue, but something that affects everyone who have women who they care about in their lives. Reproductive health issues especially often affect couples, not solely one half of couples.

As a man, you could have a vasectomy to be almost sure to avoid the issue, but naturally it's ridiculous that you'd have to do that. I still think that it wouldn't be a completely bad idea for women in countries with strict abortion laws to do a collective childbearing strike for a couple years. Why risk their health to give new tax payers to a country that doesn't respect their bodily autonomy or health? I know that the world is overpopulated and anti-immigration sentiments are high, but countries as economic units still seem to care about a steady flow of native children, so they might even care if women just close the taps, so to speak.

I know that due to the health risk a pregnancy is, if I was living in a country that would rather let me get sepsis from an ongoing miscarriage (and then cuff me to the hospital bed for suspicion of having caused the miscarriage deliberately) than abort a fetus with a heartbeat or something like that, I would have refused to get pregnant and focused on adoption as an alternative.

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2016-04-05, 18:36
by Car
Varislintu wrote:
Car wrote:Nah, we'd have far too many men whining about discrimination then. Make it apply for everyone and we'll see enough outcry about it already.


True, I guess we could just go for the obligatory liver donations. Comply or be prosecuted for murder. Oh, it's inconvenient for you to donate right now? Your financials, health, career, family, or mental health might suffer? Well I'm sooo soorry but we all have to sacrifice a little in the name of ethics.

/here be sarcasm

Opt-out for donations would already be something in many countries...

Re: Abortion

Posted: 2016-04-06, 6:58
by Varislintu
Car wrote:Opt-out for donations would already be something in many countries...


Yup. We still have a long way to go, especially since it's a constant back-and-forth movement around this issue. Stricter and more lenient policies alternate. In a way I understand why, but on the other hand most of the time the moves towards increased strictness seem to be based mainly on regressive or even downright hostile attitudes towards women's ability to make decisions cocerning their own bodies, or towards women's sexual rights, or just plain ignorance/misinformation/disinformation. It never feels as though abortion restrictions come from a place of "We started to think about this more closely and scientifically", but rather from a place of "We stopped thinking about this issue very closely and will hence forth use our knee-jerk reactions as a guideline for laws". :(