Abortion

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linguoboy
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Re: Abortion

Postby linguoboy » 2014-02-20, 21:07

languagepotato wrote:1) Women people (not only women, men too) should cope with the consequences of their mistakes.

I agree, which is why I'm staunchly in favour of male pregnancy.
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Re: Abortion

Postby md0 » 2014-02-20, 21:11

abortion = child murder

it's okay to undo the harm (to the extent it's possible


So, you are in favour of honour killing, by the standards you have set?
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Re: Abortion

Postby languagepotato » 2014-02-20, 21:13

meidei wrote:
abortion = child murder

it's okay to undo the harm (to the extent it's possible


So, you are in favour of honour killing, by the standards you have set?


no, that's not undoing the harm, that's harming the people who did the harm.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Varislintu » 2014-02-20, 21:14

1) Men don't face the consequences, because they are physical. Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy, not parenthood per se. A woman can give the child up for someone else to care for. It is not the parenthood that she is facing optionless. But if she is not allowed abortions, she will face optionless that another living creature exists in her body and uses it for survival without her consent.

2) You adding "mistakes" makes no difference. I cut it out for brevity.

3) But the crux of the issue is: you think it is okay to kill the child if the mother is not as guilty, in your eyes, of transgression. Do you see how much this is about the mother to you, not about the child? The kid didn't rape anyone. It is just as innocent as the ones created in consensual sex. But to you it matters more whether the mother has suffered or not, and how much. Abortion is a reward in this kind of thinking. Withholding it is, consequently, a punishment. It has little to do with the kid, I think. The same can be seen in your view about medical issues: if the mother will suffer very much medically, then we can allow her an abortion. Again, the kid is just as innocent. But suffering can buy the kids' death, if you or whatever jury is convinced enough. It's nice to sit and decide such matters for others, isn't it? One can appear merciful.

4) Nice to hear I'm "kinda" a massmurderer. I can just tell how much the whole "life of the children" matters to you. :wink:

5) And checking off "abstinence is best" on the list as well. I still put you in the same category.
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Re: Abortion

Postby md0 » 2014-02-20, 21:21

languagepotato wrote:
meidei wrote:
abortion = child murder

it's okay to undo the harm (to the extent it's possible


So, you are in favour of honour killing, by the standards you have set?


no, that's not undoing the harm, that's harming the people who did the harm.
You are approving the killing of something you consider a human being because it caused harm to someone else (I assume you mean the woman who was raped), just because it exists.

How is that "the kid's" fault, so you believe it deserves death?

And since you believe that a fetus is a human, saying that you can "undo" it is extremely dehumanising.
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Re: Abortion

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-02-20, 21:31

3) But the crux of the issue is: you think it is okay to kill the child if the mother is not as guilty, in your eyes, of transgression. Do you see how much this is about the mother to you, not about the child? The kid didn't rape anyone. It is just as innocent as the ones created in consensual sex. But to you it matters more whether the mother has suffered or not, and how much. Abortion is a reward in this kind of thinking. Withholding it is, consequently, a punishment. It has little to do with the kid, I think. The same can be seen in your view about medical issues: if the mother will suffer very much medically, then we can allow her an abortion. Again, the kid is just as innocent. But suffering can buy the kids' death, if you or whatever jury is convinced enough. It's nice to sit and decide such matters for others, isn't it? One can appear merciful.


This has always been my opinion. I think that languagepotato's idea, which is rather common among who's "pro-life", is so crammed with religious values that it's almost nauseating.

Suffering as a mean of redemption. That's what it is about. There's nothing more religious than that.

And yet, there's really no difference between kids, regardless of how they were conceived. This hypocrisy is so shrill that it's an insult to human intellect. But after all coherence has never been a big thing for certain people...

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Re: Abortion

Postby Babelfish » 2014-02-21, 22:22

Varislintu wrote:3) But the crux of the issue is: you think it is okay to kill the child if the mother is not as guilty, in your eyes, of transgression. Do you see how much this is about the mother to you, not about the child? The kid didn't rape anyone. It is just as innocent as the ones created in consensual sex. But to you it matters more whether the mother has suffered or not, and how much. Abortion is a reward in this kind of thinking. Withholding it is, consequently, a punishment. It has little to do with the kid, I think. The same can be seen in your view about medical issues: if the mother will suffer very much medically, then we can allow her an abortion. Again, the kid is just as innocent. But suffering can buy the kids' death, if you or whatever jury is convinced enough. It's nice to sit and decide such matters for others, isn't it? One can appear merciful.
This.

Abortions in Israel are in principle illegal, unless approved by special committees due to rape, medical or social conditions (de facto many abortions are approved AFAIK, e.g. for girls under 18). I'm pro-choice myself but have considered this at least better than places where abortion is illegal, period. Just now I'm getting how absurd it actually is to "punish" a woman with keeping an unwanted pregnancy because she "wasn't careful enough".
This pertains to abortion shortly after conception; aborting a pregnancy near its end isn't different enough from killing the newborn - one hell of a slippery slope.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Varislintu » 2014-08-19, 11:54

So, apparently a woman in Ireland who was denied the choice of abortion by a panel (even though she was suicidal), and who consequently went on hunger strike in an effort to kill the fetus, was actually restrained to a bed and force fed by tube until the fetus was viable and could be cut out of her.

I've sometimes used this kind of scenario as the most extreme consequence of what happens if the rights of a fetus are deemed to win over the rights of a woman. And now it seems to have happened in a reasonably modern European country.

Are the fetuses really this special? Or are women just so not-special? I cannot understand it.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Massimiliano B » 2014-08-20, 7:16

You were a foetus. So, yes, foetuses are very special.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Varislintu » 2014-08-20, 7:38

Massimiliano B wrote:You were a foetus. So, yes, foetuses are very special.


Yeah, I realise that some people will value a fetus higher than me. They are prepared to enslave me for their purpose of keeping a fetus alive. They would have been prepared to do this to my mother as well, theoretically. I am telling you, though, as an ex-fetus, that I was not so bloody special at that early stage that my mother should ever have been under potential threat of being treated like a slave to me. I don't find anything good in the idea that my mother would have had no choice but to carry me to term.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Massimiliano B » 2014-08-20, 9:53

I think that you and the foetus you were have the same value and are the same entity.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Varislintu » 2014-08-20, 11:16

Massimiliano B wrote:I think that you and the foetus you were have the same value and are the same entity.


I'm not sure what practical implications that has, as I'm not sure what that means exactly. If my mother, a thinking, feeling being, had not wanted to be pregnant with the fetus that later became me, what practical implications does it have to think that fetus-me and she have the same value and are the same entity? If she had wanted to abort fetus-me and not been allowed to, had it or had it not been right to basically confiscate her body and her bodily functions and give them to fetus-me? Had it or hadn't it been right to go to such lengths to assert fetus-me's alleged rights over her rights to bodily autonomy? And should it somehow make me feel good to know that fetus-me was so special that society could take my mothers body from her and give it to me? How am I to think that made her feel? And what good is that specialness status to me if I can be treated the same as soon as my body is pregnant?

No. The most humane way to solve the fetus vs. mother situation is to give the mother the primary choice of who gets to use her body. Taking away that choice hurts both mothers and female fetuses once they grow up.

EDIT: Oh, I see---you were saying that I and fetus-me are the same entity, not fetus-me and my mother. Still, that doesn't make the situation any clearer. The questions I posed above still stand. I wouldn't consider it a gift from society that society had done that to my mother, if she hadn't wanted to be pregnant with me and abortion was illegal. I'd be pretty pissed off on her behalf, and horrified at the cost at which I came to be. And I'd be perfectly aware that as soon as I became pregnant, I'd potentially be treated the same. Basically I'd feel like both me and my mother (and women) are some kind of pawns in a game of asserting power --- society would be asserting its power over my mother's body by using fetus-me, and then later asserting its power over my body by using either my actual or even just potential pregnancy.
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Re: Abortion

Postby languagepotato » 2014-08-20, 14:00

so, i've been thinking about this.
and my conclusion now is that as long as one can't transplant fetuses easily from an unwilling mom to a willing mom, this discussion will always stand seeing how it's choosing between 2 wrongs, either you kill a child (abortion) or you burden a woman with a creature in her she doesn't want (unwanted pregnancy).
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Re: Abortion

Postby Lur » 2014-08-20, 14:28

I don't see your two wrongs at all. I see one. And that transplanting would requires surgery. You can't do that to a person if that person doesn't want to.

And why are we in so desperate need of fetuses anyway? We aren't.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2014-08-20, 15:26

Yeah, there is one wrong. Murdering babies, i.e. other human beings. I will never understand how people can be so insensitive and heartless.

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Re: Abortion

Postby md0 » 2014-08-20, 15:34

I'm pretty sure everyone here is against infanticide, as it is a form of homocide.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Aurinĭa » 2014-08-20, 18:48

Varislintu wrote:(...)
And should it somehow make me feel good to know that fetus-me was so special that society could take my mothers body from her and give it to me?
(...)
I wouldn't consider it a gift from society that society had done that to my mother, if she hadn't wanted to be pregnant with me and abortion was illegal. I'd be pretty pissed off on her behalf, and horrified at the cost at which I came to be. And I'd be perfectly aware that as soon as I became pregnant, I'd potentially be treated the same. Basically I'd feel like both me and my mother (and women) are some kind of pawns in a game of asserting power --- society would be asserting its power over my mother's body by using fetus-me, and then later asserting its power over my body by using either my actual or even just potential pregnancy.

Exactly. How will that child in Ireland feel if/when they find out that their father raped their mother, who was then denied an abortion, tried to commit suicide, restrained and force-fed, and forced to undergo a C-section 26 weeks into the pregnancy? Not to forget the chronic health problems the child is very likely to have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterm_birth#Complications
I don't think they care any more about the fetus' feelings than about the pregnant women's feelings. As long as their body stays alive.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Varislintu » 2014-08-20, 19:01

xivrox wrote:Yeah, there is one wrong. Murdering babies, i.e. other human beings. I will never understand how people can be so insensitive and heartless.


(I'm going to assume you mean embryos/fetuses.) That's fine as an opinion. You shouldn't ever have to have an abortion if you don't want to, and if it's against your moral principles. The really messy ethical issues arise if and when you want to take choice away from others. What happens if they refuse? In Ireland, the woman who refused to snap out of her suicidal mental state and carry her rapist's baby to term like a good little girl was pretty much completely stripped of all bodily autonomy. She was forcibly fed through a gastro-nasal tube. My personal opinion is that that is so far from sensitive, heartful, empathetic or life-celebrating that I cannot even comprehend it. Not even livestock should be treated like that.

If you want to take bodily autonomy away from women, you will face cases when a stern word is not enough to make them comply, and they will call your bluff. You may have to detain them, strap them to beds and force feed them for weeks or months, and then deliver an unwanted, probably premature baby. Is that really right in your opinion? Do you really feel that when you yourself were 8 weeks in development in the womb, that something like that could morally have been done to your mother, just to ensure you came to be? :shock:
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Re: Abortion

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-08-20, 19:46

to me, the kid starts being a kid, the moment the sperm enters the egg
Image

That don't look like any kid I ever heard of!

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Re: Abortion

Postby md0 » 2014-08-20, 19:51

Why is it half-blue and half-pink?
Do you have some kind of intersex agenda?
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