Abortion

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Re: Abortion

Postby TeneReef » 2013-03-05, 1:28

''Pro-life and pro-choice'' sounds like euthanasia. :blush:
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Re: Abortion

Postby Car » 2013-03-05, 9:22

ILuvEire wrote:Car, on the Wikipedia page, the German is called "die Lebensrechtsbewegung" ("the right to life movement"). Have you ever heard that term before?


No, although there are of course debates about abortion from time to time, too, with the most vocal opponents being Catholics.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Johanna » 2013-03-05, 11:39

ILuvEire wrote:I really think that the pro-life/pro-choice thing is silly, it should just be pro-abortion and anti-abortion, because at the end of the day, I don't think that any of us pro-choicers have any qualms about saying that we think that women should have access to abortion.

That can give the wrong impression too, since it can give the impression that people who are pro-choice think that high abortion rates is something desirable, when most actually think that it is a problem, but want to lower them in different ways than simply banning them.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Varislintu » 2013-03-05, 13:09

ILuvEire wrote:it should just be pro-abortion and anti-abortion


I don't think that's neutral enough either, because as Johanna points out, pro-abortion doesn't really describe what most pro-choicers want. The majority of them don't want abortions per say, after all, but a legal right and a choice to have one. In that sense I think something like "pro legal choice" and "anti legal choice" would be most neutral and descriptive. :hmm:

Because let's face it, even if abortion is illegal, technically there's still a "choice". It's called a coat hanger...
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Re: Abortion

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-06-03, 19:04

What I personally find quite disgusting is how little the Church actually cares about the life of actual people. Just to name few examples:

- On one of his trips to Africa the erstwhile pope stated that condoms are perfectly useless for the prevention of AIDS! Wow what a great love the catholics have for life...

- The State of Vatican City never signed the universal declaration of human rights.

- Benedict XVI praised publicly Cyril of Alexandria, who killed the philosopher Hypatia.

- The catholic church backed a lot of bloody dictatorships all over the world.

And the list could go on and on... And I could also include other denominations...

So yeah... hearing from those organizations that the life of embryos is sacred... is incredibly comical to say the least.

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Do you think abortion is wrong?

Postby ceid donn » 2013-11-16, 22:07

I had an abortion. I'm of the very strong opinion that if you're not someone who has needed an abortion and will never need one then you're not in a position to have an opinion. Every woman is an individual, whose life circumstances, health and personal needs will be as individual as anything a man experiences. And you cannot presume to even know any one woman's situation in detail enough to pass judgement on her choice to get an abortion. That is why it's none of anyone else's business, except for that woman and anyone else *she* wishes to include in that choice, like her partner or her family.

Moreover, to say abortion is wrong except in cases where the woman might die is such bullcrap. The only reason anyone would think woman should not have abortion except when that she might die is because limiting access to abortion is ultimately about controlling the woman. That's the position of someone who thinks women need to be punished for being sexual persons, as nature made us, and for having sex, as is natural and normal. We hear the same nonsense with the case of rape. But since you didn't make that exception, I'm going to assume you're a classy dude who thinks women who are raped should be punished for it (because we all know rape is the victim's fault and not the rapist's).

But either way, if you make one exception for abortion than really, you're saying the medical procedure of abortion itself is OK. It's just you don't think women ourselves actually have the right to choose an abortion,and thus iltimately be able to make choices about our own lives and health. We need Very Moral Men like you to decide when it might be OK for us to have an abortion--like if we might die. How gracious of you! Buuuuuut giving that ANY pregnancy can be life-treatening because pregnancy is inherently a risky biological event, I wonder where we are suppose to draw the line? Any OB-Gyn will tell you you can't actually know when a woman "might die" from a pregancy until she actually has died, and then,whoops, it's a little too late your crusading moralizing! What a pickle!

In addition to the reality-defiant absurdity of all of this, your postion exposes how your baseline thinking towards women is that we're sluts and whores, and only a few of us can possibly be exempt from your judgement. Nevermind that the majority of women who seek abortions are already mothers with families and want an abortion because they cannot afford another child for one reason or another. Those whores!

But facts--eh. They mess with our BELIEFS. And we love believing women deserve to be controlled and punished, because we're such damned sluts. Nevermind if forcing women to carry an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy:

--keeps them and their children in poverty, or will force them into poverty
--forces them (and any children they may have) to stay with an abusive partner
--swamps them with medical bills for themselves or their child that are financially overwhelming
--costs them a job or an education which in turn limits their future ability to earn an income to support themselves and that child
--or if their pregnancy complicates a pre-existing health problem, like heart disease or depression, compromises their long-term health and ability to raise that child

Why should we let logic, facts, common decency and compassion over those very real issues that compel women to seek an abortion get in the way of our sanctimonous belief that women are just whores who need to be kept in their place? Why should we let women have any control over their bodies, their life choices and ultimately their quality of life and the quality of life of any child they may have? No. Can't have that. Too reasonable. Too compassionate. Too civilized. And that would be too much like treating women like they are human beings. The horror.

Look, let's get real: abortion has been a part of human culture as long as there has been human culture, because women, like or it not, have always made choices about when they should and should not be pregnant (actually a very common phenomenon in many species). For ages, we have trusted women to make this choice. It's only in recent centuries, thanks largely to patriarchial religions like Christianity, that society has stopped trusting women to make these choices about pregnancy and child-bearing that we have evolved to make. Yeah, that's why nature gave us the uterus and not you dudes. Sorry, but it's time to start trusting women again. Deal with it.

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Re: Abortion

Postby Massimiliano B » 2014-02-16, 1:01

What do you think about «after-birth abortion»? I think it's inhuman. See here:


http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/0 ... 00411.full


This paragraph shocked me:

«(...) we claim that killing a newborn could be ethically permissible in all the circumstances where abortion would be. Such circumstances include cases where the newborn has the potential to have an (at least) acceptable life, but the well-being of the family is at risk».

The «well-being of a family»?? How could an omicide improve the well-being of a family?

The authors, in the abstract, write clearly that killing a newborn could be ethically permissible «including cases where the newborn is not disabled», if the well-being of the family is at risk.


What do you think about it?

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Re: Abortion

Postby Michael » 2014-02-16, 2:22

Massimiliano B wrote:What do you think about «after-birth abortion»? I think it's inhuman. See here:


http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/0 ... 00411.full


This paragraph shocked me:

«(...) we claim that killing a newborn could be ethically permissible in all the circumstances where abortion would be. Such circumstances include cases where the newborn has the potential to have an (at least) acceptable life, but the well-being of the family is at risk».

The «well-being of a family»?? How could an omicide improve the well-being of a family?

The authors, in the abstract, write clearly that killing a newborn could be ethically permissible «including cases where the newborn is not disabled», if the well-being of the family is at risk.


What do you think about it?

It appears to be a proposal to legalize honor killing, basically. I mean, what else could it be?
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Re: Abortion

Postby Varislintu » 2014-02-16, 16:45

Massimiliano B wrote:What do you think about «after-birth abortion»? I think it's inhuman. See here:


http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/0 ... 00411.full


This paragraph shocked me:

«(...) we claim that killing a newborn could be ethically permissible in all the circumstances where abortion would be. Such circumstances include cases where the newborn has the potential to have an (at least) acceptable life, but the well-being of the family is at risk».

The «well-being of a family»?? How could an omicide improve the well-being of a family?

The authors, in the abstract, write clearly that killing a newborn could be ethically permissible «including cases where the newborn is not disabled», if the well-being of the family is at risk.


What do you think about it?


Are these people nuts? It's like they don't understand why abortion is ethically justifiable. It's ethically justifiable because an unwelcome pregnancy infringes on someone's bodily autonomy. Once the child is not a part of someone else's body, this ethical justification is no longer valid. You can't just kill a newborn, since a newborn can be taken care of and kept alive by someone who volunteers or willingly does it for a living.
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Re: Abortion

Postby md0 » 2014-02-16, 18:00

People who are losing the abortion debate are desperate like that.
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Re: Abortion

Postby languagepotato » 2014-02-20, 18:48

as a guy who (generally) disagrees with abortion, my view is like this:

abortion should be illegal UNLESS
- the woman asking for abortion was raped
OR
- the woman asking for abortion and/or the 'abortee'* will be in grave danger if they don't go through with the abortion



in my opinion it's like this: don't kill , just because you can't cope with the consequences of your mistakes.

i often hear 'my body, my decisions!', well, what about the kid (to me, the kid starts being a kid, the moment the sperm enters the egg) himself/herself?


* I can't find a better word for kid who is being aborted
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Re: Abortion

Postby md0 » 2014-02-20, 18:53

as a guy my view is

in my opinion

to me

We are glad you shared your expert opinion as a person who might be at some point affected by this issue, and you also have the medical credentials to define the limits that should apply to abortion.

Oh wait. You are neither.
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Re: Abortion

Postby languagepotato » 2014-02-20, 19:01

meidei wrote:
as a guy my view is

in my opinion

to me

We are glad you shared your expert opinion as a person who might be at some point affected by this issue, and you also have the medical credentials to define the limits that should apply to abortion.

Oh wait. You are neither.


funny how you don't use actual arguments against my point of view but just go 'you can't say anything, you're not someone with medical credentials and/or a uterus'
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Re: Abortion

Postby md0 » 2014-02-20, 19:19

Yes, pretty much, seeing that those are the things that count.
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Re: Abortion

Postby languagepotato » 2014-02-20, 19:48

meidei wrote:Yes, pretty much, seeing that those are the things that count.


i could say the same thing about you (well, at least the uterus part, i have no clue whether or not you have medical credentials or not)

anyhow, i shared my opinion (i.e. what i think is ethically acceptable), do with it whatever you like. i'm out of here (this topic), let's just say, we disagree.
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Re: Abortion

Postby md0 » 2014-02-20, 20:06

No, you can't say the same about me. You didn't see me telling people when they should be able to have an abortion, and when they should not. It's actually none of my business, nor is yours.

Having an opinion isn't that special. I have lots. Everyone does. They aren't necessarily valid and they shouldn't be automatically respected because someone holds them.
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Re: Abortion

Postby languagepotato » 2014-02-20, 20:39

meidei wrote:No, you can't say the same about me. You didn't see me telling people when they should be able to have an abortion child murder, and when they should not. It's actually none of my business, nor is yours.

Having an opinion isn't that special. I have lots. Everyone does. They aren't necessarily valid and they shouldn't be automatically respected because someone holds them.



so, now you can read how i read your words, my opinion is very simple, don't hurt others. i count feti/fetuses as people too.

and now i'm really leaving this topic (who am i kidding, i'll probably return to read your reply and answer it again.)
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Re: Abortion

Postby PiotrR » 2014-02-20, 20:39

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO
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Re: Abortion

Postby Varislintu » 2014-02-20, 20:43

languagepotato wrote:as a guy who (generally) disagrees with abortion, my view is like this:

abortion should be illegal UNLESS
- the woman asking for abortion was raped
OR
- the woman asking for abortion and/or the 'abortee'* will be in grave danger if they don't go through with the abortion



in my opinion it's like this: don't kill , just because you can't cope with the consequences of your mistakes.

i often hear 'my body, my decisions!', well, what about the kid (to me, the kid starts being a kid, the moment the sperm enters the egg) himself/herself?


* I can't find a better word for kid who is being aborted


So let's see the checklist :wink: :

1) Women should cope with the consequences.

2) But if they were raped, it's okay to kill a "kid".

So it's the "illegalised abortion as punishment for women who can't keep their legs closed" variant of anti-choice opinion. It's quite common.

Btw, if a kid starts when an egg is fertilised, do you consider me morally a mass murderer for using a copper IUD as birth contol?
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Re: Abortion

Postby languagepotato » 2014-02-20, 20:55

Varislintu wrote:
languagepotato wrote:as a guy who (generally) disagrees with abortion, my view is like this:

abortion should be illegal UNLESS
- the woman asking for abortion was raped
OR
- the woman asking for abortion and/or the 'abortee'* will be in grave danger if they don't go through with the abortion



in my opinion it's like this: don't kill , just because you can't cope with the consequences of your mistakes.

i often hear 'my body, my decisions!', well, what about the kid (to me, the kid starts being a kid, the moment the sperm enters the egg) himself/herself?


* I can't find a better word for kid who is being aborted


So let's see the checklist :wink: :

1) Women people (not only women, men too) should cope with the consequences of their mistakes.

2) But if they were raped, it's okay to kill a "kid" are a victim of something, it's okay to undo the harm (to the extent it's possible (i know it's impossible to undo rape)).

So it's the "illegalised abortion as punishment for women who can't keep their legs closed don't kill feti/fetuses" variant of anti-choice-killing opinion (i'm very pro-choice, as long as it doesn't hurt others). It's quite common.

Btw, if a kid starts when an egg is fertilised, do you consider me morally a mass murderer for using a copper IUD as birth contol? kinda, the best ways for birth control are imo 'not doing it', 'doing it with yourself' or 'doing it with a condom (but the last one isn't that foolproof)'


so, i changed it so you have the right checklist.
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