Random Politics Thread

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mōdgethanc
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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-03, 1:25

vijayjohn wrote:I mean, I'm not saying I support invading a foreign country or anything (*takes a second to glare at several American presidents*), but the American government has frequently set very bad precedents, even for itself. You know, like arming and supporting Saddam Hussein. So if it's precedent they're worried about, maybe they should reform their own foreign policy rather than try to control what the leaders of other countries do.
This is getting into whataboutism though. We can be against America doing these things and also believe the international community was right to not let Saddam annex Kuwait.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-03, 2:42

mōdgethanc wrote:This is getting into whataboutism though. We can be against America doing these things and also believe the international community was right to not let Saddam annex Kuwait.

I don't believe they were wrong per se; I just don't agree with giving the US in particular so much credit for it.

This is like if a kid took a bottle of ketchup into his room and sprayed it all over the place, then freaked out over it leaking through his bedsheets and cleaned his bed up. Is it bad that it was leaking through his bedsheets? Sure it is. Was he right to clean it up? I mean, I guess, since he'd never be able to use that bed again otherwise. Does he deserve to be praised forever for cleaning his bed? Not really, that is just taking care of one of his own responsibilities, and it's in his own interests. Meanwhile, the rest of his room is still dirty, and it would make more sense for him to just not spray ketchup all over his damn room.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-03, 4:09

I wouldn't praise the US for the Gulf War either. They said they were going to liberate Kuwait, they did (or rather the coalition did) and they didn't foolishly try to occupy the country but stuck to the mission parameters. Doing what they were supposed to do isn't really praiseworthy, like all those news stories that say "cop shows admirable restraint by not shooting person who was arrested".

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Yasna » 2018-12-04, 17:16

"Denmark plans to house the country’s most unwelcome foreigners in an island that now holds a center for researching contagious animal diseases. One of the two ferries that serve the island is called the Virus." - NYT

I doubt the policy is half as bad as it sounds, but might want to work on the PR Denmark. :lol:
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-05, 1:02

Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought that was the point - to make Denmark seem as unappealing to foreigners as possible and thereby discourage immigration.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Yasna » 2018-12-05, 16:31

Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-10, 8:22

A Reddit communist is demanding I argue with him about why I think the kulaks didn't deserve to be mass-murdered and thinks the Holodomor was fascist propaganda. I was tempted to tell him I don't debate with tankies or conspiracy nuts, but wisely I ignored him. Why are Marxist-Leninists like this?

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Saim » 2018-12-10, 13:22

mōdgethanc wrote:A Reddit communist Soviet nationalist is demanding I argue with him about why I think the kulaks didn't deserve to be mass-murdered and thinks the Holodomor was fascist propaganda. I was tempted to tell him I don't debate with tankies or conspiracy nuts, but wisely I ignored him. Why are Marxist-Leninists like this?


Are you seriously suggesting that comrade Stalin personally strangled a gazillion Ukrainians just because they were Ukrainians? That he literally payed the clouds not to rain? Goebbels much?

Btw, the Irish Famine and the Bengal Famine were both genocide and if you deny that you're bourgie liberal scum.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby md0 » 2018-12-10, 16:30

What the UK is doing to themselves right now is unbelievable :shock:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... itics-live

Not to kick a state when it's already down, but that would be a good chance for us to kick the British military bases out of the island, which will greatly simplify our other sovereignty dispute.
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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-10, 22:31

Saim wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that comrade Stalin personally strangled a gazillion Ukrainians just because they were Ukrainians? That he literally payed the clouds not to rain? Goebbels much?

Btw, the Irish Famine and the Bengal Famine were both genocide and if you deny that you're bourgie liberal scum.
I literally thought this was a serious post at first before seeing who wrote it.

Remember:

Our guy did it = liberal propaganda, didn't happen ("liberal" means Nazi btw)

Their guy did it = proof capitalism kills at least 100 billion a year

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby md0 » 2018-12-12, 21:40

Turkey announces plans to invade Syria again
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... gan-139662
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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Aurinĭa » 2018-12-22, 15:17

As if Belgian politics aren't absurd enough, the federal government fell over a non-binding international agreement (the UN migration pact), because one party pretty much did a 180° turn and refused to sign, while the others insisted on signing. Five months before the next elections. At least that pretty much rules out early elections.
:roll:

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-22, 17:28

md0 wrote:Turkey announces plans to invade Syria again
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... gan-139662
Well, that was fast.

Orang man bad.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Saim » 2018-12-23, 16:42

A question for my fellow non-Poles: regarding the controversy in Poland around the expression "Polish concentration camps", is anyone in your countries actually under the impression that there were extermination camps for Jews run by Polish people? I would say that the Holocaust is one of the most internationally well-known examples of genocide and has almost become a symbol of deep evil, and it's pretty much always attributed to Nazi Germany. In fact, I feel like in Australia there are probably more people who think Auschwitz is somewhere in Germany than think that Poles were primarily responsible for the Holocaust.

Another thing is I don't think the expression "x nationality concentration camps" is really a common expression in English. I wouldn't call concentration camps for Boers "British concentration camps", nor do I call the camp in Nauru an "Australian concentration camp". I wouldn't even call the extermination camps run during the Holocaust "German concentration camps".

The whole thing is totally weird to me; I would've just dismissed this whole thing as one of those weird trips Polish nationalists go on but it seems to have filtered out into the general population so I'm trying to reflect a bit more on the issue. This isn't really an active controversy at the moment but I've come to realise that some of my apolitical Polish friends (i.e. most of them) have pretty strong feelings about the whole "Polish concentration camps" issue so I'm starting to wonder if I'm not the one being insensitive.

IpseDixit

Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-12-23, 17:18

is anyone in your countries actually under the impression that there were extermination camps for Jews run by Polish people?


No.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-23, 17:21

No, I don't know of anyone who thinks there were ever any Polish people running concentration camps, period. I myself also used to think Auschwitz was in Germany (I almost have to remind myself that it isn't). I rarely hear people talking about concentration camps at all, especially in a non-Nazi context.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-23, 20:12

Saim wrote:A question for my fellow non-Poles: regarding the controversy in Poland around the expression "Polish concentration camps", is anyone in your countries actually under the impression that there were extermination camps for Jews run by Polish people? I would say that the Holocaust is one of the most internationally well-known examples of genocide and has almost become a symbol of deep evil, and it's pretty much always attributed to Nazi Germany. In fact, I feel like in Australia there are probably more people who think Auschwitz is somewhere in Germany than think that Poles were primarily responsible for the Holocaust.
Stephen Fry got into some hot water for comments about the camps being in Poland, so it does exist. I think the term should be avoided because it could give the impression that the Polish were collaborators with the Nazis rather than victims of them (which IME very few people know about and I've even seen heated arguments denying that Poles count as Holocaust victims). I'm not saying it is a common thing though, but I understand where it is coming from. If two million of my countrymen died under the Nazis, I wouldn't exactly be happy with the term.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Car » 2018-12-23, 20:58

IpseDixit wrote:
is anyone in your countries actually under the impression that there were extermination camps for Jews run by Polish people?


No.

Same here. It's really baffling to read how we're supposedly using the term Polish concentration camp a lot* and supposedly have been trying to shift the blame to them since the 60s. That couldn't have been further from the truth of everything I learnt at school and heard or read in the media. It seems there weren't just two German states at the time of my birth, but rather three...

*ZDF used this expression once, but that was precisely such a big thing since it's fortunately not the norm. Needless to say that it was used to justify those claims.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Saim » 2018-12-23, 21:07

mōdgethanc wrote:Stephen Fry got into some hot water for comments about the camps being in Poland, so it does exist. I think the term should be avoided because it could give the impression that the Polish were collaborators with the Nazis rather than victims of them (which IME very few people know about and I've even seen heated arguments denying that Poles count as Holocaust victims). I'm not saying it is a common thing though, but I understand where it is coming from. If two million of my countrymen died under the Nazis, I wouldn't exactly be happy with the term.


But is the term actually used by anyone? I had never heard the term before I knew of the controversy. I obviously don't think the term should be used but I'm not aware of it existing except in anecdotal cases where people made an honest mistake. There was that one Israel politician who tweeted some nonsense, but every other case of it seems to be a small number of people unthinkingly using "Polish" as shorthand for "in Poland".

The thing that I was reflecting on is that I was in a synagogue in Hungary with a Polish friend and the rabbi there said "Auschwitz, Poland" and my friend got upset and started talking about the whole "Polish concentration camps" thing. She even said that Germany is a more powerful country than Poland so German media can easily spread the idea that Poland was responsable, and I'm thinking to myself, if any country has come to terms with past wrongs it committed it's Germany!

Is denying Poles dying in extermination camps (or alternatively claiming this as somehow separate from the Holocaust), as horrible as that is, the same as saying that the camps were Polish? And is correctly identifying Auschwitz as being in Poland (I mean, it just is; it's very common to combine seeing Auschwitz with a trip to Krakow) really a problem?

Also many Poles did collaborate with the Nazis and many of those that didn't were still anti-Semites. In the interwar period a social democratic Polish PM was called a "Jew candidate" by right wing press and then later assassinated by a Polish nationalist. There were pogroms committed by ethnic Poles during WWII -- nothing on the scale of Nazi extermination camps, but who's counting? Not only that but present-day Poland is still full of anti-Semitism.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-23, 21:45

Saim wrote:But is the term actually used by anyone? I had never heard the term before I knew of the controversy. I obviously don't think the term should be used but I'm not aware of it existing except in anecdotal cases where people made an honest mistake. There was that one Israel politician who tweeted some nonsense, but every other case of it seems to be a small number of people unthinkingly using "Polish" as shorthand for "in Poland".

The thing that I was reflecting on is that I was in a synagogue in Hungary with a Polish friend and the rabbi there said "Auschwitz, Poland" and my friend got upset and started talking about the whole "Polish concentration camps" thing. She even said that Germany is a more powerful country than Poland so German media can easily spread the idea that Poland was responsable, and I'm thinking to myself, if any country has come to terms with past wrongs it committed it's Germany!

Is denying Poles dying in extermination camps (or alternatively claiming this as somehow separate from the Holocaust), as horrible as that is, the same as saying that the camps were Polish? And is correctly identifying Auschwitz as being in Poland (I mean, it just is; it's very common to combine seeing Auschwitz with a trip to Krakow) really a problem?

Also many Poles did collaborate with the Nazis and many of those that didn't were still anti-Semites. In the interwar period a social democratic Polish PM was called a "Jew candidate" by right wing press and then later assassinated by a Polish nationalist. There were pogroms committed by ethnic Poles during WWII -- nothing on the scale of Nazi extermination camps, but who's counting? Not only that but present-day Poland is still full of anti-Semitism.
Part of the problem is because yes, Poland does have a problem with anti-Semitism (which was not historically always the case - at one time it was probably the least anti-Semitic country in Europe) and it's well-known that many nations collaborated with the Nazis, so someone who hears about "Polish death camps" might mistakenly jump to conclusions about their nature. But no, the term is not in widespread use; there is no way to tell but I would guess most of the time it's used mistakenly.

This would not be an issue at all if we had better education about the Holocaust (in America at least a depressingly large number of millennials do not even know what it is) which explained that most of the Holocaust took place in occupied eastern Europe, not Germany itself.


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