Random Politics Thread

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vijayjohn
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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-19, 0:11

Antea wrote:That’s because they usually have the nationality of a European country.

They don't have a nation to begin with.
IpseDixit wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:All you have to do to know how pointless borders are, especially in a European context, is look at the Roma. Roma in Europe have never given a fuck about anyone's borders.


I don't give a fuck about chemistry therefore chemistry is pointless.

(Just for the record, I don't have very strong opinions about borders at this point in time but I really struggle to understand your logic).

European countries have borders.
Roma have always ignored them.
Therefore, borders don't just magically prevent immigration.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Antea » 2018-08-19, 0:17

I don’t know what do you understand exactly by a nation, but nowadays they usually have documents and a nationality, like everybody else.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-19, 0:22

And I don't know what you mean by "like everyone else." There is not a single country in the whole world, let alone in Europe, that is known to treat Roma as equal citizens. It's easier for them to get an Indian passport than it is for them to get one from any European country.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Antea » 2018-08-19, 0:28

By Roma do you mean gypsies? There are plenty of them with European nationalities, depending on the country in which they were born or live.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-19, 0:42

Antea wrote:By Roma do you mean gypsies?

Yes.
There are plenty of them with European nationalities, depending on the country in which they were born or live.

I know.

Let me try rephrasing what I mean: Roma are a stateless people and don't have a country or land of their own. There has never been a country that is governed by Roma. There has never existed such a thing as a Romani government. From a traditional Romani viewpoint, borders are irrelevant, and Romani identity, history, etc. is not attached to any particular area of land. Roma have managed to migrate between countries throughout their history without anyone's permission or approval.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Antea » 2018-08-19, 0:50

I agree there’s not a Roma state, but they have nationalities. Like Spanish, French, Romanian nationalities, for example.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-19, 1:57

I don't actually know what you mean by "nationality" (I misread your previous post as saying that there were Roma with citizenship in some European countries). Roma typically don't consider themselves Romanian, French, etc.; aren't treated as such, either; and have strict rules about the extent to which interacting with non-Roma is permissible.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Antea » 2018-08-19, 2:11

Yes, by nationality I mean legal nationality, like citizenship, passport. I don’t know what they consider themselves, and I suppose it depends on the person, but legally they are treated according their citizenship. And I see that they also use to interact, like in markets, trade, cultural life (music, dance), and also in other areas. I suppose it also depends on the person :hmm:

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-19, 2:17

I'm a Romani Studies major, with a Romani advisor, and I know for a fact Roma are not granted citizenship based on which country they were born in. I also know that Roma in Romania are not treated like ethnic Romanians, not by a long shot. Ethnic Romanians treat Roma like vermin to be exterminated, not like fellow countrymen. I wish that was an exaggeration.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Antea » 2018-08-19, 2:27

So you’re saying that Roma (I suppose that means gypsies, because I am not sure, as I am not a native English speaker) are all stateless, people without any citizenship? And that all the great Spanish flamenco artists and dancers and musics and other that consider themselves as Roma, didn’t have Spanish citizenship?

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-19, 2:42

Not really, no.

I'm saying they're not all just granted citizenship based on where they were born. In fact, I would venture a guess that the majority of Roma in Europe (yes, even today) are not granted citizenship in the countries where they were born.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Antea » 2018-08-19, 2:47

:hmm: It also depends of the laws of the country for acquiring the citizenship.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-08-19, 10:12

vijayjohn wrote:European countries have borders.
Roma have always ignored them.
Therefore, borders don't just magically prevent immigration.


So a Roma crossing a country didn't have to go through custom and border control back in the pre-schengen days?

(And btw, borders are not just for preventing immigration)

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby kevin » 2018-08-19, 12:38

Yasna wrote:Apparently my point was too subtle. The idea is that Germany essentially carried out an open borders experiment in 2015, when thousands of migrants were crossing into Germany on a daily basis with little to no background checks.

Any you know exactly that this isn't true. Nobody opened a German border in 2015. We've already had an open border with Austria for 20 years, and Austria had one with Hungary for some time, based on European law, and it worked. Things became rough when Hungary decided to fuck us and break the law.

Yes, Merkel offered to take a number of refugees from Hungary (ten thousand, if I remember correctly) after Hungary had compeltely lost control and the train station in Budapast had become a camp. Hungary obviously wasn't able to deal with this, so Germany offered to help Hungary and the refugees. While I never voted for Merkel's party or hoped that she would win in any of the past elections, I support her in this decision. (And in fact, a good number of refugees were already marching towards the border anyway, so realistically the only other option would have been stopping them with violence.)

Helping our so-called friends in Hungary and treating some refugees as humans was not the problem. The problem was that Hungary, instead of being thankful for the help and doing its best to take care of the remaining people, started to betray us and transport all of the refugees straight to the border, without even attempting to register them and organising things in a controlled manner, which they were legally obliged to do. Germany chose to show solidarity and to contribute our part (and that was exactly what we should have done), but Orban essentially forced us to handle everything alone, which was hard because of the sheer number, and even harder because those who were supposed to organise things at the EU borders let us down. And again, instead of being thankful for us involuntarily solving his whole problem, he even blames us for being his victims.

I wouldn't actually be surprised if the whole thing was well calculated by Orban. He has always had some trouble with the EU because he just doesn't share the values, so when there was a chance to weaken it, he just took it. He's happy to take our money and help and everything, but it's a one-way thing for him.

So fuck Orban and fuck Hungary.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Saim » 2018-08-19, 13:12

Speaking of which, Three Arrows's politics is a fair bit to the right of mine, but he made a pretty good video on this topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0g0BDEid8M
Last edited by Saim on 2018-08-19, 16:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-19, 15:54

IpseDixit wrote:So a Roma crossing a country didn't have to go through custom and border control back in the pre-schengen days?

I mean, I think it depends on which Rom (in Romani at least, Rom can be either singular or plural whereas Roma is strictly plural, though English-speakers (including native speakers) are not necessarily aware of this), which country, and which pre-Schengen days. Clearly-defined borders, customs, and border control are only so old and have not been equally enforced at every border at all times. Also, finding ways to sneak across a border is a thing. So sometimes they did, and sometimes they didn't.
(And btw, borders are not just for preventing immigration)

I know, but immigration seems to be the pertinent topic in the context of what Yasna was just saying about borders, so that's the one I'm addressing.

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Yasna » 2018-08-21, 23:41

Saim wrote:I don't believe in opening borders, I believe in abolishing them completely. :)

Am I wrong to think that abolishing borders would lead to millions of migrants from poorer countries streaming into the wealthy countries?

kevin wrote:Nobody opened a German border in 2015. We've already had an open border with Austria for 20 years, and Austria had one with Hungary for some time, based on European law, and it worked. Things became rough when Hungary decided to fuck us and break the law.

You're of course right, but what made 2015 an open borders experiment was that we got to see what happens when potential migrants from poor countries are essentially made to understand that they will not be turned away from a wealthy country like Germany. It was a rough approximation of an open borders world.

IpseDixit wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:All you have to do to know how pointless borders are, especially in a European context, is look at the Roma. Roma in Europe have never given a fuck about anyone's borders.


I don't give a fuck about chemistry therefore chemistry is pointless.

(Just for the record, I don't have very strong opinions about borders at this point in time but I really struggle to understand your logic).

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-22, 0:00

Yasna wrote:
Saim wrote:I don't believe in opening borders, I believe in abolishing them completely. :)

Am I wrong to think that abolishing borders would lead to millions of migrants from poorer countries streaming into the wealthy countries?

Hasn't that already been happening anyway?

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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby md0 » 2018-08-22, 4:09

Am I wrong to think that abolishing borders would lead to millions of migrants from poorer countries streaming into the wealthy countries?

Considering that the existence of 'wealthy' and 'poor' countries is itself a problem we want to solve, even if your impression is correct [1], that's not an argument against abolition of borders as far as border abolitionists are concerned. It might even be a welcome pressure on the countries currently winning at wealth accumulation to redistribute and degrow, something which is unavoidable and urgently necessary (unless one expects post-scarcity to become a thing within the next 50 years and magically solve all social problems without requiring the rich getting less rich).

[1]: I don't disagree with it actually, I just think you overestimate the scale. Not everyone who can immigrate easily (and legally etc) from a poorer country to a wealthier one does it.
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Re: Random Politics Thread

Postby Saim » 2018-08-22, 5:25

Yasna wrote:
Saim wrote:I don't believe in opening borders, I believe in abolishing them completely. :)

Am I wrong to think that abolishing borders would lead to millions of migrants from poorer countries streaming into the wealthy countries?


A core aspect of my politics is the desire to end the division between richer and poorer countries altogether (and of course the whole global nation-state system). I see this wealth as operating in a global system; the wealth of richer countries is in no small part drawn out of the exploitation of poorer countries. I feel no special allegience to wealthy countries and don't want them to succeed at the expense of the rest of humanity (and the environment).


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