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Yasna wrote:A ridiculous comparison.
Police stepping in to stop an independence referendum (killing no one) versus a state requesting that its foreign allies bomb one of its own towns, resulting in hundreds of deaths.
The nation state is deeply entrenched in today's world.
If not even the EU can overcome it, what hope do other more nationalistic regions of the world like East Asia and the US have?
So because the USA can't be trusted to show restraint, no one can?
I tend to think that the US functions a lot more like other countries than Americans like to believe. What sets the US apart is mostly just its relative strength at this moment in history, which is in turn largely a function of its extremely fortunate geographic position. Unless you buy into that hype about American exceptionalism.
Saim wrote:Yasna wrote:What??? If anything, Spain's firm response will deter other regions from moving towards secession.
Have you been paying attention to what's happening in Catalonia at the moment? Did I post too many links or something?
I bolded the key part for you.
In dieser Konfrontation ist die spanische Regierung im Recht. Sie verteidigt in Katalonien eine der Grundlagen der Demokratie: Politiker haben sich Gesetzen und Gerichten unterzuordnen.
And what a poorly run referendum
Yasna wrote:It seems like we have some very different criteria for when it is justified to break laws,
especially fundamental ones that hold a country together.
md0 wrote:If the federalisation of Spain is not on the table after this, then Catalonia is more than justified in unilaterally seceding.
I for one welcome the inevitable
vijayjohn wrote:The United States is not a nation state. China is not a nation state. Taiwan is not a nation state. India is not a nation state.
Oh, by the way, you know what else isn't a nation state? Spain!
And Belgium and Bosnia and possibly the UK and so on and so forth.
Keep in mind that when Catalonia leaves Spain will still have a number of other national minorities within its borders, so federalism would still be completely justified.
xBlackHeartx wrote:Personally, I doubt Catalonia could win a war with the rest of Spain.
md0 wrote:I saw a headline that Internet blackout is attempted by Spain during the crackdown in Catalonia.
Any truth in that? Did they go full "flawed democracy*"?
* My understanding of this term is "authoritarian, but NATO ally so we don't want to call them out".
xBlackHeartx wrote:It would seem that Catalonia lied about the turn out.
IpseDixit wrote:On a more pragmatic side, what is Catalonia going to do now? What moves can it undertake? Catalonia doesn't have an army and it's quite clear that Spain has no intention whatsoever to lose its richest region peacefully, and what's more, it seems to have the support -either explicit or tacit- of Europe and the US, so it's not that it's going to face economic sanctions or become a pariah in the international community. Catalonians can protest and go on strike but what are the chances of gaining independence through these means?
xBlackHeartx wrote:It would seem that Catalonia lied about the turn out. Around half the country didn't turn up to vote out of protest.
Think about it, imagine if it was a 'no' vote, and they had acted like this.
Granted, its starting to look like the whole thing was just a stunt by the leftists in Catalonia.
Saim wrote:xBlackHeartx wrote:It would seem that Catalonia lied about the turn out. Around half the country didn't turn up to vote out of protest.
They lied about the turnout or about half the country didn't turn up? Because the official figures show 42% turnout excluding the 700,000 votes stolen by the cops.
xBlackHeartx wrote:They initially claimed that 3/4 of eligible voters voted in the referendum,
And it would appear the 'leader' of Spain's title, is 'king'. From my research, it looks like Spain is run by a dictatorship. And they were quite oppressive just a few decades ago. It would seem that things haven't really improved much in the country. I had no idea what the Europeans were tolerating a regime like that. And they're part of the EU of all things.
And I'm aware that Europe's idea of right and left doesn't line up too well with America's, but honestly Spain's seems to be surprisingly close. The right is authoritarian and refuses to acknowledge minority rights. While the left supports progressivism and minority rights. I mean, Spanish government actually outlawed the Catalan language at one point. That definitely sounds like the right and left here. While, minus the fact that the right here is highly anti-communist (even though they're technically the real communists, which is sad).
md0 wrote:Guy seems to belong to a conservative pro-business party... that counts as leftist to an American?
Saim wrote:Exactly. I fundamentally care about justice, and don't see legality as something of value in and of itself.
I'm an anti-nationalist so I don't believe in countries, much less "holding them together".
Yasna wrote:The problem with that is everyone has their own idea of what is just. Do you really want radical right-wingers casually sidestepping the law to carry out what they believe is justice?
What exactly do you think the Catalonian independence activists are trying to create for Catalonia? lol
Saim wrote:Yasna wrote:The problem with that is everyone has their own idea of what is just. Do you really want radical right-wingers casually sidestepping the law to carry out what they believe is justice?
They will no matter what I think, so my personal desires are irrelevant. I don't oppose the far-right fundamentally because they break the law, if that's what you're asking.
Many of my close friends are Catalan independence activists. If you're actually interested in what they have to say I'll relay it to you.
vijayjohn wrote:I get the impression he's basically asking what your idea of justice is and why it's fundamentally better than their idea of justice. Personally, I don't think a violent government is a just one. I don't think a government is just if it involves violating basic human rights or attacking unarmed civilians for exercising the right to vote (I'm sure most people in this discussion already know this so I wouldn't normally bother saying this, but just in case anybody starts misconstruing it, no, I do not think my government is just). I think a government should allow for political representation and not violence. Would you say this is somewhere along the lines of what you're thinking?
I see a few of y'all have raised concerns about what's going to happen in the immediate future. I'm more curious about what would happen after independence. Okay, so the government is Spain is brutalizing you and you win independence but then what? I'm concerned that the Spanish government's response to this referendum may be stifling any discussion about the potential future.
Saim wrote:You mean once Catalonia is de facto (control over the territory) and de jure (internationally recognised) independent?
It would just be a state like any other, and the exact nature of that state will be decided in constitutive elections. What in particular are you wondering about?
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