Page 42 of 44

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-20, 9:42
by Itikar
Rivaldo wrote:The first pages of this topic expose a ideology that mixes geography with culture/religion trying to establish a very weird "euro" nationalism.
Europe is a continent and it's as absurd to suppose an European culture as to suppose an Asiatic one, or use any other geographic reference to talk about human identity or behaviour.

Yeah, it is totally absurd, personally I see the word "European" as a geographical term and nothing more.
I do not feel "European" at all, and I am perfectly fine in this way.

Not that I have anything against the other "Europeans", I really like their cultures, but I feel I have more in common with a Tunisian or a Turk than with a Swede or an Estonian.

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-20, 9:54
by Levo
linguoboy wrote:
Levo wrote:The more poor (or just simply not as wealthy) countries you take in this kind of Union, the more millions of unsatisfied masses you make which will cause tensions on both sides.

The tensions seem to originate more from the richer countries' resentments at having to subsidise poorer neighbours and accept their migrants (and the poorer countries' resentment of their unequal treatment) than anything else. I think the poor would be dissatisfied either way. It's not like without the Union they wouldn't have tourists flow in from their richer neighbours or see their consumer lifestyles widely depicted in the media.

linguoboy, yes.
I see you live in Illinois. I don't know if you study or work right now, let's suppose you have a job you do for a living.
Imagine that someone in let's say California does exactly the same job as you, in the same working hours. (in his timezone).
And you know that he earns 4 times more than you. Just because he is living in California. And your salary is stuck there because you are in Illinois. Same job, same duties.
Maybe some goods have higher prices in this imaginary California, but certainly with not an equally big difference.
He is able to afford a lot of things you cannot, and live among way better conditions than you.
You are both in the same political, legal and economical union. From the seat/capital of the union you hear that you are both equal. You have the same rights.
How would you feel?

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-20, 12:34
by mōdgethanc
10% of the Dutch people live below the poverty line
You mean the Netherlands has poor people like every other country?
Lur wrote:It's a shame that such level of cooperation on collective work towards happen only happens with a war or something. They even ended up inventing nuclear weapons in record time because the governments actually wanted it like right now.
You mean a small group of scientists hired by the federal government did. It's not like an anarcho-syndicalist collective did by spontaneously organizing or something.
If someone wins an Age of Empires match with "austerity" let me now.
"Real life" (like my use of scare quotes?) isn't a video game. I know you don't like it because it contradicts your radical leftist beliefs, but austerity is the only option sometimes when an economic situation is totally out of control (and I mean Zimbabwe-like hyperinflation, not merely high unemployment like Spain).

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-20, 12:55
by linguoboy
Levo wrote:You are both in the same political, legal and economical union. From the seat/capital of the union you hear that you are both equal. You have the same rights. How would you feel?

So your argument is that I would feel somehow more dissatisfied than if I lived right across the national border in Baja California? That's the part I'm not seeing. I'm sure Mexicans consider themselves every bit our equals in dignity and rights regardless of whether they're here or in Mexico.

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-20, 14:27
by Levo
linguoboy wrote:
Levo wrote:You are both in the same political, legal and economical union. From the seat/capital of the union you hear that you are both equal. You have the same rights. How would you feel?

So your argument is that I would feel somehow more dissatisfied than if I lived right across the national border in Baja California? That's the part I'm not seeing. I'm sure Mexicans consider themselves every bit our equals in dignity and rights regardless of whether they're here or in Mexico.

No I mean, that you live in the United States now, and the other job is also in the United States. In another state, like California. I could've said Pennsylvania or Oregon, or whatever. You are just in different states within.

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-20, 14:37
by linguoboy
Levo wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Levo wrote:You are both in the same political, legal and economical union. From the seat/capital of the union you hear that you are both equal. You have the same rights. How would you feel?

So your argument is that I would feel somehow more dissatisfied than if I lived right across the national border in Baja California? That's the part I'm not seeing. I'm sure Mexicans consider themselves every bit our equals in dignity and rights regardless of whether they're here or in Mexico.

No I mean, that you live in the United States now, and the other job is also in the United States. In another state, like California. I could've said Pennsylvania or Oregon, or whatever. You are just in different states within.

I understand the analogy; I don't understand what's behind it. My argument is that people envy and resent their richer neighbours regardless. Your contention seems to be that this is somehow worse when they're in the same polity with them. I'm not convinced that's true.

So, again, let me ask the question: How do you think someone regarding a Californian from Illinois would feel differently than someone regarding them from south of the border? (Or, to put it another way, how does a Hungarian regarding a Dutchman feel differently than a Tunisian doing the same?)

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-22, 12:01
by Hoogstwaarschijnlijk
mōdgethanc wrote:
10% of the Dutch people live below the poverty line
You mean the Netherlands has poor people like every other country?


Haha, yes. And this matters because politicians often make it seem that 'we' (the rich people) should help them (the poor people). And then people think: eeh, wait a minute, why don't you first help the people in your own country?

Which I not necessarily agree with, because this 'poverty line' is sometimes a bit awkward. Like, I have heard that people should be able to go on a holiday each year. That's just stupid. But there are also enough people who really can't feed their children and I do understand why they are frustrated about the EU.

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-24, 9:12
by Levo
linguoboy wrote:
Levo wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Levo wrote:You are both in the same political, legal and economical union. From the seat/capital of the union you hear that you are both equal. You have the same rights. How would you feel?

So your argument is that I would feel somehow more dissatisfied than if I lived right across the national border in Baja California? That's the part I'm not seeing. I'm sure Mexicans consider themselves every bit our equals in dignity and rights regardless of whether they're here or in Mexico.

No I mean, that you live in the United States now, and the other job is also in the United States. In another state, like California. I could've said Pennsylvania or Oregon, or whatever. You are just in different states within.

I understand the analogy; I don't understand what's behind it. My argument is that people envy and resent their richer neighbours regardless. Your contention seems to be that this is somehow worse when they're in the same polity with them. I'm not convinced that's true.


Because you're not on the poor side :D It's okay, I just tried to make you imagine it.
As far as i'm concerned in the USA such things exist as nationwide minimum salary? It doesn't exist in EU yet. Though we are all "equal". And we are visible not equal.
I'm fine with it, because being born in this country, I am used to it. As I am used to the fact that without knowing at least two foreign languages and having a university degree you cannot make ends meet. Even though I know it is maybe different elsewhere, this is natural for me and I'm okay.
I am only mentioning these because the topic is taking another country into EU which is poor compared to the existing members, with poor standards in many fields, with a still conservative population (compared to EU-members), and when you still have inner problems with poverty between more and less developed member-states and when EU-leaders still criticize eastern states for having a differenct view about liberalism... then why should this union let another 80 million people join, having the same problems?

And I'm telling this so, that otherwise, Turkey's join would be favourable for Hungary in many meanings.

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-24, 12:54
by Kenny
There is a minimum wage mandated on the federal level, but some states have prescribed higher minimums, so the unequality is still there (plus waiters and other tipped jobs are required to be paid a lot less since the tip is meant to make up for the difference, as a result minimum wage for tipped jobs is something like 2 dollars an hour while for "normal" jobs it's a bit over $7 IIRC).

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-24, 12:55
by linguoboy
Levo wrote:As far as i'm concerned in the USA such things exist as nationwide minimum salary?

No, there is no minimum salary. There is a minimum hourly wage (currently $7.25). But for tipped employees (chiefly restaurant servers), the cash minimum is $2.13. These laws do not apply to US territories; for Guam, the minimum is $6.55. On the other hand, states are free to set minimums above the Federal threshold; in Washington state, for instance, the rate is $9.19 for all workers (tipped and non-tipped).

Every state is quite different; that's just how a federation works. North Dakota currently has an unemployment rate of 3.2%; here in Illinois, it's 9.1%. The median household income of Maryland is over $67,000. In Mississippi, it barely tops $39,000. The combined sales tax in Chicago is 9.5% on top of which we also pay a tax of 5% on income and variable property taxes on our real estate assets. Washington on the other hand has no state income tax and taxes sales at a rate of only 6.5% and citizens of New Hampshire pay no state sales tax at all.

Do I resent Washingtonians on account of their higher wages and lower taxes? No; if I wanted to benefit from them I could move there myself, but I don't like that much rain. (I do, however, envy the fact that they have a state government that actually works as opposed to the dysfunctional embarrassment stinking up our state house.) That's the other benefit of a federation: You can move around to where the work is legally instead of having to sneak across the borders.

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-24, 16:56
by Johanna
You can move to another EU country legally too, but the language barrier is usually too much for most people to overcome, while in the US most people speak English natively and most immigrants speak it fluently, and that is usually sufficient.

I guess that's one of the reasons that resentment exists; you know you can move there in theory, but in practice it's a completely different story.

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-24, 17:13
by JackFrost
Kenny wrote:(plus waiters and other tipped jobs are required to be paid a lot less since the tip is meant to make up for the difference, as a result minimum wage for tipped jobs is something like 2 dollars an hour while for "normal" jobs it's a bit over $7 IIRC).

The tips has to add up to be $7.25/hour though or otherwise, the employer will have to make up the difference. It's still bullshit anyways.

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-24, 21:57
by TeneReef
Johanna wrote:You can move to another EU country legally too, but the language barrier is usually too much for most people to overcome, while in the US most people speak English natively and most immigrants speak it fluently, and that is usually sufficient.

I guess that's one of the reasons that resentment exists; you know you can move there in theory, but in practice it's a completely different story.


I don't know. Some European countries are overly protective of local employees, and therefore, see foreigners as competition. It would be difficult for a Swedish or a Slovenian doctor to get a job offer in France or Italy, even with great local language skills. On the other hand, in Norway and Sweden, forEUign doctors are received without much hassle, as long as they speak the language fluently (B2/C1 level).

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-25, 9:15
by Levo
linguoboy wrote:
Levo wrote:As far as i'm concerned in the USA such things exist as nationwide minimum salary?

There is a minimum hourly wage (currently $7.25).



So it actually does exist :)
Here there is nothing like that, no minimum hourly/monthly wage/salary on EU-level.


linguoboy wrote:[The median household income of Maryland is over $67,000. In Mississippi, it barely tops $39,000.

I understand what you would like to point at, comparing it to our situation. But here the difference is around X4 between EU-15 and EU-newer Central-European states. Your example is X1,7 (67k vs 39k), and prices might even compensate it a little - not sure though.
Like, an average gross monthly salary in Germany is around 2900 euros, while in Hungary, some 740€. Of course, prices are not 1/4 :P
But it is really not the numbers I want to go into now.

linguoboy wrote:Do I resent Washingtonians on account of their higher wages and lower taxes? No;

With such small differences, I'd be fine too with my environment compensating all.

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-25, 18:20
by JackFrost
Levo wrote:Here there is nothing like that, no minimum hourly/monthly wage/salary on EU-level.

Well, no surprise since the EU isn't a sovereign state and it wouldn't be realistic to impose one considering the huge cost-of-living gap between the north, the south, and the east. It's not really comparable to the well-integrated federal structure of the US. Or even the ones of Canada, Australia, Mexico, Switzerland, Russia, Malaysia, and Brazil.

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-25, 19:16
by linguoboy
Levo wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Levo wrote:As far as i'm concerned in the USA such things exist as nationwide minimum salary?

There is a minimum hourly wage (currently $7.25).

So it actually does exist

Um, no. A wage is not a salary. If you're an hourly employee working twenty hours one week and five ours the next, you get paid for twenty-five hours. If you're salaried, you get paid the same semimonthly stipend no matter how many hours you worked. There's no minimum number of hours an employee needs to be given and, therefore, no minimum monthly or yearly earnings.

Levo wrote:
linguoboy wrote:[The median household income of Maryland is over $67,000. In Mississippi, it barely tops $39,000.

I understand what you would like to point at, comparing it to our situation. But here the difference is around X4 between EU-15 and EU-newer Central-European states.

Here's the difference: Maryland and Mississippi have been part of the same federal union for just shy of 200 years; the gap has shrunk enormously, but it still persists. Hungary hasn't even been part of the EU for ten. I suspect people's expectations of the benefits of accession (and the speed with which they would be delivered) were less than realistic.

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-26, 7:19
by Varislintu
linguoboy wrote:semimonthly stipend


Heh, Americans and their impatient semimonthly salaries. ;) (In Finland salaries are paid out monthly.)

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-26, 9:39
by Kenny
Varislintu wrote:
linguoboy wrote:semimonthly stipend


Heh, Americans and their impatient semimonthly salaries. ;) (In Finland salaries are paid out monthly.)

Like most everywhere else I think, including Hungary and France. :D

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-26, 18:07
by linguoboy
Varislintu wrote:
linguoboy wrote:semimonthly stipend

Heh, Americans and their impatient semimonthly salaries. ;) (In Finland salaries are paid out monthly.)

Generally, that's the case in the USA as well. But wages are frequently paid biweekly and some institutions like to have all their employees (salaried and non-salaried) on the same payment schedule.

Re: Turkey in the EU

Posted: 2013-06-26, 19:01
by Varislintu
linguoboy wrote:
Varislintu wrote:
linguoboy wrote:semimonthly stipend

Heh, Americans and their impatient semimonthly salaries. ;) (In Finland salaries are paid out monthly.)

Generally, that's the case in the USA as well.


Ah, ok. :)