Turkey in the EU

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Should Turkey be admitted into the EU?

Turkey is suitable to be admitted now
18
15%
Turkey is not suitable at the present, but will be in the future
59
49%
Turkey should not be admitted now or in the future (explain your reasons)
44
36%
 
Total votes: 121

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md0
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby md0 » 2013-02-03, 9:33

* southern EU states.
It makes sense now, no?
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby johnklepac » 2013-02-03, 13:45

Johanna wrote:I think he means that a lot of southern Europe looks way more Turkish than Finnish.

Not to mention that few would deny for example Albania the right to join, provided they sort out their problems first, so religion is clearly not an issue.

Yeah, that's true. In fact, I can't tell a good number of Italians apart from North Africans. I don't think physical appearance is an issue, though, just culture. Turkey just seems a lot more like part of the Middle East to me than of Europe.

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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby md0 » 2013-02-03, 14:15

:shock: And Swedes don't really look like Spaniards, appearance couldn't be more beyond the point here.
Take a look at the political culture of Malta, Italy, Greece, Cyprus and compare them to Turkey. Not that different. So I don't get why Turkey is not "European", but those countries are.
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby Lur » 2013-02-03, 14:48

I don't think Turkey has to be "European", however you define that.

It should be a practical thing. As if Turkey was a place in China, it shouldn't matter. At least, I wouldn't care. That said, the practicality of being in the EU has been called into question :para:

I have meet people from Turkey. At some point we talked about religion there and they ended up defining themselves as non-practicing muslims. Which reminded a lot of the people in Spain that do the same with Christianity.

[The trick with considering Turkey "Middle Eastern" is that from most of the time, the origin and main focus of our "Western civilization" was there, in the Middle East. So the distinction is kind of fuzzy :P]
Last edited by Lur on 2013-02-03, 15:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby Marah » 2013-02-03, 15:06

meidei wrote: And Swedes don't really look like Spaniards, appearance couldn't be more beyond the point here.
Take a look at the political culture of Malta, Italy, Greece, Cyprus and compare them to Turkey. Not that different. So I don't get why Turkey is not "European", but those countries are.


Well, in my opinion, Turkey is not European because of cultural, geographical and societal reasons.

Of course geography is the weakest argument here. Part of it is European as a matter of fact and by the same token we could argue over the geographical situation of Cyprus. But then again, there are all the other standards. It used to be more of an enemy than an ally. It's also from an European point of view kind of a backward society, the Armenian Genocide is still not recognized and there are many other things...
It's certainly more of a bridge to the Middle East than an European country.
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby md0 » 2013-02-03, 15:14

I insist, how is Turkey culturally and societally different from Greece, Cyprus, Malta, and Italy?
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby Marah » 2013-02-03, 15:39

Greece and Italy are culturally the cradles of Europe. Malta and Cyprus are tightly bound with those two countries. They're modern countries even though their economies are not really to their acme right now.

Turkey is on the verge of becoming a modern country. Societally... well, the Kurds for starters, the Armenian Genocide and the fact that their society is not as respectful to women as ours, even though they're making progress as far as this point is concerned. These aspects are problematic.

Maybe they can join the European Union in the future, though.
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby johnklepac » 2013-02-03, 15:53

Marah wrote:Greece and Italy are culturally the cradles of Europe. Malta and Cyprus are tightly bound with those two countries. They're modern countries even though their economies are not really to their acme right now.

Turkey is on the verge of becoming a modern country. Societally... well, the Kurds for starters, the Armenian Genocide and the fact that their society is not as respectful to women as ours, even though they're making progress as far as this point is concerned. These aspects are problematic.

Maybe they can join the European Union in the future, though.

This, honestly.

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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby md0 » 2013-02-03, 16:01

Sure, but it's not some spiritual former past of Greece and Italy that participates in the EU, but current-day countries that are as backward as the international treaties allow them to be. Greece more that Italy perhaps. And Malta and Cyprus are in even worse state because they are smaller, more isolated societies with less isles of progressiveness.

Greece for one, is a country that has no respect for privacy whatsoever (police outing HIV+ people for one), with widespread racially-motivated violence, and unrecognised/marginalised minorities (eg Macedonians living in Greece).

Women's right are severally restricted in those countries as well. (abortion, representation etc) LGBTs too.
Cyprus indirectly executes transsexual people ffs.

None of those countries are secular (not as in France's secularism, nor as in the UK's), and democracy in Cyprus, Greece and Italy does not work properly (I can't tell about Malta).

I do believe that my country has no place in the EU if we use the standards we use for Turkey. But I do think that things regarding human rights got better with our admission in the EU (because EU forces some bare minimum laws). Turkey, if was not outright denied a chance to meet the criteria for admission, could be a more humane country.
----
I guess a proper argument is that Turkey is actively involved in multiple wars and military clashes. Which is again not a waterproof argument, because EU states also participate in wars (abroad).
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby Marah » 2013-02-03, 16:15

But those countries are geographically predominantly in Europe not like Turkey and its mere 3%. They're also undeniably part of the "European identity" thanks to their history. That's why the European Union can be stricter with Turkey, in my opinion, that is.
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby md0 » 2013-02-03, 16:25

To me that looks like an admission that there are no good reasons.
Because you have already said that geography is not a strong argument, and admitting a country based to what was going on that land 2000 years ago is nothing more than sentimentalism. The Arab world was actually the place where "our" Western values and science was (re)born while Europe was undergoing its Dark Age, but we don't talk about admitting Egypt or Iran in the EU.

I am not saying that EU should be forced to accept Turkey. EU has every right to arbitrarily accept or deny any country from joining. But lets be honest that it's just that, arbitrary.
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby Marah » 2013-02-03, 16:43

meidei wrote:To me that looks like an admission that there are no good reasons.
Because you have already said that geography is not a strong argument, and admitting a country based to what was going on that land 2000 years ago is nothing more than sentimentalism. The Arab world was actually the place where "our" Western values and science was (re)born while Europe was undergoing its Dark Age, but we don't talk about admitting Egypt or Iran in the EU.

I am not saying that EU should be forced to accept Turkey. EU has every right to arbitrarily accept or deny any country from joining. But lets be honest that it's just that, arbitrary.


Apple and oranges, Egypt or Iran are definitely not European, nor in Europe, whereas Turkey is a bridge between the two "worlds", both geographically and culturally. That's why they bother to consider it.
Morocco wanted to join the EU but it was plainly refused because it isn't even in Europe.
I didn't really say that geography was not a strong argument. I said that as far as Turkey was concerned that was probably the weakest compared to the others because as a matter of fact they are indeed in Europe.
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby md0 » 2013-02-03, 16:47

I do believe that the geography one is as strong as the others, when countries like mine are in the EU.
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby Marah » 2013-02-03, 16:52

Hum... It depends on whether we consider the whole Mediterranean Sea to be part of Europe :hmm:
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby Lur » 2013-02-03, 16:57

Where do you draw a line in the middle of the sea anyway?
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby md0 » 2013-02-03, 16:59

The culture of those two countries are nearly identical as well, it's not simply geography.
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby Lur » 2013-02-03, 17:01

I think the whole "culture" thing is kind of fuzzy too.
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby Itikar » 2013-02-03, 17:23

For me Turkey could join, if it wishes so.

Please note that I am one of those who consider the adjective "European" as a mere geographical expression. So take my statement above for what it counts.
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby Tenebrarum » 2013-02-03, 18:25

Turkey might not resemble Spain or Italy, but it sure looks similar to Greece, Cyprus and Balkan countries to me (especially Albania). Or should I say it's largely the other way around - those cultures have traces of Turkish-ness due to Ottoman influence?
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Re: Turkey in the EU

Postby Garethw87 » 2013-02-03, 18:38

Formiko wrote:
Talib wrote:
Why can't they access it now? So if you're not in the EU, you can't sell to the EU? Sounds very exclusive.
No, but they would be privy to the EU's trade agreements and common market. Being exclusive is sort of the point.

This is an honest question. If Canada decided to secede from England, could Canada survive? I think it would, but I really don't know how much cash the UK gives to Canada. It's sort of odd if you think about it. Other kingdoms conquered other countries and FORCED them to be a part of their Empire, and then they revolted. Now countries are begging to join an Empire, and being denied!! Amazing!


Since when is the EU an 'Empire' ?
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