Turkey in the EU

[Nero]

Hawaii's original government (a kingdom established in the 1800s by native pacific Islanders) was overthrown, a provisional government was set up loyal to the US government, and then the territory became a state in the late 50's.

[Emandir]

By the way, may I remind you that parts of South and Central Americas, Polynesia and Africa are actually part of the UE? So, why such a mess about Turkey? After all, a small part of it is in Europe, isn't it?

[Partisan]

Greenland isn't in EU, beside of your status as colony of Denmark. It happens because a greenlandic decision defined by referendum in 80's or 90's (I don't remember exactly).

[loqu]

By the way, may I remind you that parts of South and Central Americas, Polynesia and Africa are actually part of the UE? So, why such a mess about Turkey? After all, a small part of it is in Europe, isn't it?

Not Polynesia Guyane, Martinique, Guadeloupe and Réunion are parts of the EU, but not Polynésie, Mayotte, Wallis et Futuna, Saint-Pierre et Miquelon, Clipperton nor Nouvelle-Calédonie.

[Car]

By the way, may I remind you that parts of South and Central Americas, Polynesia and Africa are actually part of the UE? So, why such a mess about Turkey? After all, a small part of it is in Europe, isn't it?

Not Polynesia Guyane, Martinique, Guadeloupe and Réunion are parts of the EU, but not Polynésie, Mayotte, Wallis et Futuna, Saint-Pierre et Miquelon, Clipperton nor Nouvelle-Calédonie.

Mayotte does now since its population decided in a referendum to became a French oversea département.

[Emandir]

Not Polynesia Guyane, Martinique, Guadeloupe and Réunion are parts of the EU, but not Polynésie, Mayotte, Wallis et Futuna, Saint-Pierre et Miquelon, Clipperton nor Nouvelle-Calédonie.

And why not? They're part of France, so part of the EU, though not of the €uro Zone...

[loqu]

Oh, Car, I had no idea, good for them!! It's cool that a map of the EU includes scattered islands through the globe

Emandir, it's not that easy. I'm not really well informed but I think it is only considered a part of the EU if EU laws apply there. And in the TOMs and collectivities the EU laws don't apply, while in the DOMs they do.

The same way Gibraltar is a part of the EU but the Falklands, Pitcairn or Bermuda (e.g.) aren't.

(I must confess that I'm fascinated with all this thing of the overseas territories, it makes me want to visit all of them. It's also hypocritical of me, because I wouldn't want Spain to have any. )

[Emandir]

Emandir, it's not that easy. I'm not really well informed but I think it is only considered a part of the EU if EU laws apply there. And in the TOMs and collectivities the EU laws don't apply, while in the DOMs they do.

Mea culpa! I'll go to bed a bit less stupid tonight!

[Formiko]

Emandir, it's not that easy. I'm not really well informed but I think it is only considered a part of the EU if EU laws apply there. And in the TOMs and collectivities the EU laws don't apply, while in the DOMs they do.

Mea culpa! I'll go to bed a bit less stupid tonight!

What's a TOM and DOM?

[Emandir]

What's a TOM and DOM?

DOM is for Département d'Outre-Mer (Overseas Departments) and TOM for Territoire d'Outre-Mer (Overseas Territories).
As departments, DOM have the same status than any part of Metropolitan France. TOM have various special status : Overseas departments and territories of France @ Wikipedia.

[mōdgethanc]

By the way, may I remind you that parts of South and Central Americas, Polynesia and Africa are actually part of the UE? So, why such a mess about Turkey? After all, a small part of it is in Europe, isn't it?

It isn't about geography, it's about the cultural and political ramifications of admitting an only partially Westernized nation.

[Car]

What's a TOM and DOM?

DOM is for Département d'Outre-Mer (Overseas Departments) and TOM for Territoire d'Outre-Mer (Overseas Territories).
As departments, DOM have the same status than any part of Metropolitan France. TOM have various special status : Overseas departments and territories of France @ Wikipedia.

Actually, the terms DOM and TOM aren't used anymore. I don't know if there are any good links in English, but there is one in French.

Oh yeah, it actually says a lot that that Canadian site has more information and is more up to date than the official site of the French government for their oversea territories. When I checked it last semester, they still listed Saint-Barthélemy and Saint-Martin (the French part) as belonging to Guadeloupe although they don't anymore since 2007.

Oh, Car, I had no idea, good for them!! It's cool that a map of the EU includes scattered islands through the globe

There's been a lot of criticism, saying that France has no right to let them vote on it (see e.g. here.

I guess we might want to split the topic, but I have to leave now, so if anyone else could do it?

[Emandir]

Actually, the terms DOM and TOM aren't used anymore. I don't know if there are any good links in English, but there is one in French.

Well, officially: I didn't even know it and I still hear talking about DOM-TOM, even on TV...

[Formiko]

Actually, the terms DOM and TOM aren't used anymore. I don't know if there are any good links in English, but there is one in French.

That's a very good link. Thank you

[KingHarvest]

Oh, my! What the heck do you call "europeanized"?

Greeks are not more different from Englishmen than Poles or Romanians, Scandinavians do not look like Portugueses, and Dutchmen often seem like aliens to Frenchmen...

What would you say if I stated that Texans are not very "Americanized"?

That said, you're quite right, Greeks and Turks often look alike, but that's just because Greece has been occupied by Ottomans for a long time...

I meant more along the lines of Greece is not much like the Western European countries, politically and culturally, and much more like Turkey.

Anyway, a very brief response to Talib since he doesn't really want to talk about this. The question isn't so nearly easily decided in a strictly geographic way very easily because of the Treaty of Lausanne, also known as the Great Exchange of the Populations. Before the early 1920s there were massive groups of Greeks living in Turkey and Turks living in Greece, but after the Treaty of Lausanne all the Greeks in Turkey had to move to the Greek state and all the Turks in Greece had to move to the Turkish state. In the process many of the Asiatic Greek elements of culture blended with the European Greek elements, and many of the things today that are thought of as Greek (rembetika, for example) are from the Asiatic Greeks, and of course the same thing happened with the European Turks emigrating to Turkey (not to mention other Greek populations moving "back" to Greece, like the Alexandrian Greeks).

Also keep in mind that Greece was cut off from the rest of Europe during the Renaissance and Enlightenment, which produced many of the cultural elements associated with Europeanness, types of government and European Classical music for example, and these things have only been jerry-rigged onto Greek culture and politics in the past century or so.

[KingHarvest]

I guess that wasn't as short a post as I had planned sorry

[mōdgethanc]

The resemblances between Greek and Turkish culture are a given - they're neighbours. But Greece has always been seen as Western, while Turkey has historically not. Perception matters here.

[KingHarvest]

No, Greeks have been seen as Eastern for a very long time (especially contemporary Greeks - everyone has always liked to fudge over this when thinking about Ancient Greeks). Seeing them as Western is relatively recent phenomenon.

[Oleksij]

I could second KingHarvest here. Greeks may be seen as rather 'Western' in terms of recent political culture, but on the ground there's much more Orientalism than one could imagine, from a Western European/Anglo-Saxon point of view, anyway.

As for the Ancient Greek heritage, I would have to be brutally honest, I don't think Νέοελληνες are entitled to nearly as much of it as they like to claim (Needless to say, that is just a Slav barbarian's amateur observation).

[KingHarvest]

Needless to say, that is just a Slav barbarian's amateur observation

It's a pretty accurate one nonetheless.