Switzerland bans construction of minarets

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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Partisan » 2009-12-03, 18:21

Boes wrote:
Partisan wrote:Switzerland: the IV Reich under formation?

Disgusting comment. Go back to kindergarten and learn some history.


The swiss SVP growning reminds the growning of the nazis in the 20's on Weimar's Germany. The idea of the "motherland under risk, risk from the strange elements to the country" are too similar.

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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Car » 2009-12-03, 20:14

Varislintu wrote:
Car wrote:Nor did the Swiss. They banned minarets, not mosques.


I know. I just thought Boes wanted mosques banned, but I was mistaken.


I know, but too many actually seem to think it it was about mosques or even seem to think it will affect the existing minarets or mosques.
At least that often seems to be the problem in discussions about the topic.

For those that understand German: The German weekly Die Zeit did an interview with the Swiss foreign secretary: Link. Quite interesting to read, IMHO.
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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Boes » 2009-12-03, 21:04

Partisan wrote:
Boes wrote:
Partisan wrote:Switzerland: the IV Reich under formation?

Disgusting comment. Go back to kindergarten and learn some history.


The swiss SVP growning reminds the growning of the nazis in the 20's on Weimar's Germany. The idea of the "motherland under risk, risk from the strange elements to the country" are too similar.

I don't care what it reminds you of, you do not make that comparison. It's offensive and euphemizes what happened during the Third Reich. Social concervatism is in a whole other league than National Socialism and it is digusting you try to make a cheap political (?) point by comparing the two.

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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Narbleh » 2009-12-03, 21:22

Boes wrote:I don't either, I just don't see why I should walk down a street and suddenly find myself in 13th century Bagdad. What's wrong with housing a mosque in a tradtional building? Where does the Koran specify it needs to look like Aladdin's palace?!


I don't see how you can get after Partisan for making disgustingly offensive comments when you go and compare a different culture's customs to "13th century Bagdad" and Aladdin's palace, a stereotypical image. Maybe it wasn't your intention, but that smacks of the idea that the Middle East is out of date and therefore inferior to us modern Westerners. For me, this statement doesn't strengthen your position.

I'm of the opinion that the ban should not have passed. I think immigrants have a duty to adapt to the country they call their new home, which includes learning the language and social norms expected. However, I don't consider depriving people of a suitable place of worship to be part of that duty. It's not for the inhabitants of the receiving country to determine what is or is not a suitable place or means of worship for a foreign people. I agree with the idea that Switzerland should have all the authority to restrict building in certain areas or have other requirements, but beyond that, I see this as a negative gesture towards the Muslim community, like Sarkozy's borderline racist comment that burqas are not welcome in France.

And it seems some aren't content to espouse isolationist views against Muslims, but others have to imply that Americans can't understand the concept of fatherland, or that American culture is somehow deficient and deprives us of our ability to sympathize with I guess "real" cultures like in Europe. What was that word for considering one's culture superior to another's, again? :roll:
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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Boes » 2009-12-03, 21:38

Narbleh wrote:
Boes wrote:I don't either, I just don't see why I should walk down a street and suddenly find myself in 13th century Bagdad. What's wrong with housing a mosque in a tradtional building? Where does the Koran specify it needs to look like Aladdin's palace?!


I don't see how you can get after Partisan for making disgustingly offensive comments when you go and compare a different culture's customs to "13th century Bagdad" and Aladdin's palace, a stereotypical image.

I was talking, quite obviously, about the architecture chosen for Mosques in Europe.

Narbleh wrote:Maybe it wasn't your intention, but that smacks of the idea that the Middle East is out of date and therefore inferior to us modern Westerners.

Compared to 'Western culture', no that's a stereotypical image, compared to my culture 'The Middle East' is terribily backwards; especially concerning social issues. Obviously we live in the same day and age, but a Saudi woman has less rights than a Dutch woman had 500 years ago.


Narbleh wrote:I'm of the opinion that the ban should not have passed. I think immigrants have a duty to adapt to the country they call their new home, which includes learning the language and social norms expected. However, I don't consider depriving people of a suitable place of worship to be part of that duty.

Why would a traditional building not be suitable? Again, why does it have to look like Aladdins palace?


Narbleh wrote:It's not for the inhabitants of the receiving country to determine what is or is not a suitable place or means of worship for a foreign people.

Yes it is, it's their country.

Narbleh wrote:I see this as a negative gesture towards the Muslim community, like Sarkozy's borderline racist comment that burqas are not welcome in France.

How's that racist? Please by all means, explain to my how that is racist?

Narbleh wrote: (...) but others have to imply that Americans can't understand the concept of fatherland, or that American culture is somehow deficient and deprives us of our ability to sympathize with I guess "real" cultures like in Europe. What was that word for considering one's culture superior to another's, again? :roll:

A nationalistic concept of a 'fatherland' has got nothing to do with it, nor have I, or have I seen others, make comments that state that serican culture doesn't exist. it has to do with ethnicity; something Americans lack. Deal with it.

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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Partisan » 2009-12-03, 21:52

Boes wrote:
Partisan wrote:The swiss SVP growning reminds the growning of the nazis in the 20's on Weimar's Germany. The idea of the "motherland under risk, risk from the strange elements to the country" are too similar.

I don't care what it reminds you of, you do not make that comparison. It's offensive and euphemizes what happened during the Third Reich. Social concervatism is in a whole other league than National Socialism and it is digusting you try to make a cheap political (?) point by comparing the two.


The ban of the minarets is more offensive. If the comparison is possible, it's because there are a guilty. A guilty known as SVP.

PS: The name "Socialism" at the name National Socialism, was used to mislead the german working class and to remove possible future new members to Communist Party and the Social Democrat Party on Weimar's Germany.

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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Boes » 2009-12-03, 22:05

Partisan wrote:
Boes wrote:
Partisan wrote:The swiss SVP growning reminds the growning of the nazis in the 20's on Weimar's Germany. The idea of the "motherland under risk, risk from the strange elements to the country" are too similar.

I don't care what it reminds you of, you do not make that comparison. It's offensive and euphemizes what happened during the Third Reich. Social concervatism is in a whole other league than National Socialism and it is digusting you try to make a cheap political (?) point by comparing the two.


The ban of the minarets is more offensive.

How is banning minarets in Switzerland more offensive than the ideology that made humans into animals, caused the deaths of millions and brought forth the near total destruction of Europe and Eastern Asia?

Get some goddamn history lessons.
Partisan wrote:PS: The name "Socialism" at the name National Socialism, was used to mislead the german working class and to remove possible future new members to Communist Party and the Social Democrat Party on Weimar's Germany.

Utter nonsense. National Socialism contains the term 'socialism' because it incorporates features of socialism such as anti-pluralism, anti-individualism, and anti-materialism.

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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Partisan » 2009-12-03, 22:54

Boes wrote:How is banning minarets in Switzerland more offensive than the ideology that made humans into animals, caused the deaths of millions and brought forth the near total destruction of Europe and Eastern Asia?

Get some goddamn history lessons.


The referendum about the minarets have a ideologic basis supported by SVP.
You talk about deaths... and the millions of the dead in America and in Africa because the christian faith dicrectly or indirectly?

Boes wrote:Utter nonsense. National Socialism contains the term 'socialism' because it incorporates features of socialism such as anti-pluralism, anti-individualism, and anti-materialism.


The socialism don't works with anti-pluralism, because of the international character of the socialism.
The socialism don't works with anti-individualism, it works with the union of the workers' individualities against the exploration of the workers.
The socialism don't works with anti-materialism, because the socialism works with dialectic materialism. How the socialism can be materialist and anti-materialist at same time?

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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Oleksij » 2009-12-04, 6:19

Boes wrote:it has to do with ethnicity

Wow. I didn't see that coming.

Yes it is, it's their country.

Agreed.
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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Formiko » 2009-12-04, 7:44

Partisan wrote:
and the millions of the dead in America and in Africa because the christian faith dicrectly or indirectly?

I NEVER understood why people who call themselves Christians would EVER go to war. Christ was a pacifist. (Well, the reason is that they were never taught the true Christ)
I would like to apologize to those who have been affected be Christian terrorism (iincluding my own people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears)
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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Boes » 2009-12-04, 8:26

Oleksij wrote:
Boes wrote:it has to do with ethnicity

Wow. I didn't see that coming.

Ethnicity in the scientific and European sense; IE dealing with culture. Nopt the American usage of the term as in skin color.

Partisan wrote:and the millions of the dead in America and in Africa because the christian faith dicrectly or indirectly?

Without any comment on the correctness of the numbers named, given that you were also totally incorrect concerning National Socialism and Communism, are you really doing what I think you're doing? Comparing atrocities?

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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby KingHarvest » 2009-12-04, 17:26

Nopt the American usage of the term as in skin color.


You should probably stop talking about America since you've been demonstrating in this thread that you know nothing about it.
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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Babelfish » 2009-12-04, 20:07

Boes wrote:
Narbleh wrote:I see this as a negative gesture towards the Muslim community, like Sarkozy's borderline racist comment that burqas are not welcome in France.

How's that racist? Please by all means, explain to my how that is racist?

Indeed... At most anti-Islamic and offensive, maybe, but it has nothing to do with race. Sadly, in political debates nowadays people very often sling around terms like "Nazis" "fascists" "racists" "terrorists" etc etc with no relation to the actual opinions they're criticizing. These terms have become little more than swearwords. ... And honestly, most people here seem smarter and not fanatic enough to write like that.
P.S. I can wholly understand Sarkozy's stance regarding burqas, unless someone can convince me how they are not symbols of oppression of Women in Islam :roll: This damn idea exists in Jewish conservative communities as well, that women must cover themselves lest men behold a piece of skin and be aroused or something. Why don't the supposedly-superior men learn to control themselves?! :x

Partisan wrote:
Boes wrote:How is banning minarets in Switzerland more offensive than the ideology that made humans into animals, caused the deaths of millions and brought forth the near total destruction of Europe and Eastern Asia?

Get some goddamn history lessons.

The referendum about the minarets have a ideologic basis supported by SVP.
You talk about deaths... and the millions of the dead in America and in Africa because the christian faith dicrectly or indirectly?

How is that even relevant to the comparison Boes made and you criticize??


In the meanwhile, the Conference of European Rabbis and other Jewish bodies condemned the decision as well: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3814454,00.html
I guess the ban itself is quite wrong, especially if the talk is only about 4 mosques or so in the entire country... It was just an easy opportunity for Swiss citizens to express their fears of Islam, so they took it. The response of the Swiss government, however, is rather ridiculous - it essentially condemns the decision of its own populace rather than discuss where it all came from. Pfff.

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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Narbleh » 2009-12-04, 21:23

Though Boes took the time to reply to my post, I don't see anything constructive coming from continuing a discussion with someone who as KingHarvest said apparently has no idea about what America or Americans actually are/think.

To clarify, it is my opinion that Sarkozy's comments are racist because I see it as another incarnation of the idea that because our culture considers it oppressive, since we are so much more enlightened, progressive, and socially advanced than Muslim countries, it's our prerogative to impose our morals and social norms on a totally different culture to their supposed benefit. One of the definitions of racism is belief in superiority of one's own race or culture. I interpret "burqas aren't welcome in France" and "burqas are oppressive to women and Islam is flawed in this way" to be racist for that reason, especially with comments like "13th century Baghdad" and "Aladdin's palace" :roll:

It's a matter of totally different cultural frames of reference.
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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Car » 2009-12-04, 21:41

Babelfish wrote:I guess the ban itself is quite wrong, especially if the talk is only about 4 mosques or so in the entire country... It was just an easy opportunity for Swiss citizens to express their fears of Islam, so they took it. The response of the Swiss government, however, is rather ridiculous - it essentially condemns the decision of its own populace rather than discuss where it all came from. Pfff.


Switzerland has 4 minarets so far, the number of mosques was indicated as "a bit more than 100" in some sources, others say 280. Not all are officially registered, so it's hard to count, but it's rapidly growing.
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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Boself » 2009-12-04, 23:39

This ban on minarets is most probably in breach with the ECHR.

In my opinion it is in flagrant breach of the convention and I hope Switzerland will be condemned for this appalling decision.

In the end this is for the judges of the ECHR to decide, but the muslims in Switzerland have a very strong case and i would urge them to go to Strasbourg asap.
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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Giovanni » 2009-12-04, 23:44

Narbleh wrote: since we are so much more enlightened, progressive, and socially advanced than Muslim countries, it's our prerogative to impose our morals and social norms on a totally different culture to their supposed benefit.

This is what the US do when they claim to "export democracy". I don't see anything bad in imposing our habits and rules on foreigners once they're in our own country.


Narbleh wrote: I interpret "burqas aren't welcome in France" and "burqas are oppressive to women and Islam is flawed in this way"


Just to clarify: the main problem in Europe with the burqa is that it covers the person's face completely and makes the person unrecognizable. Everyone has to be immediately identifiable, this is the point.

Had an official to check the identity of a woman wearing a burqa, what would he do, would he try to compare the model of burqa on the id's picture with the one the woman is wearing at the moment? No face can be constantly covered: it's a matter of public safety. If some country doesn't follow this same principle within its boundaries, that's not our problem: I will not ask to bomb it in order to force this country to change habits. But I want be able to recognize everyone at my home.
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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Narbleh » 2009-12-05, 0:08

Giovanni wrote:
Narbleh wrote: since we are so much more enlightened, progressive, and socially advanced than Muslim countries, it's our prerogative to impose our morals and social norms on a totally different culture to their supposed benefit.

This is what the US do when they claim to "export democracy". I don't see anything bad in imposing our habits and rules on foreigners once they're in our own country.

You'll find a remarkable portion of the US population did not and still does not support either war in the Middle East ;)

Again, I agree that immigrants should make an attempt to integrate into the society and culture they choose to enter. However, things that are very deeply rooted in culture, such as religion (e.g. the burqa), I don't feel are reasonable things to ask be changed.

Narbleh wrote: I interpret "burqas aren't welcome in France" and "burqas are oppressive to women and Islam is flawed in this way"


Just to clarify: the main problem in Europe with the burqa is that it covers the person's face completely and makes the person unrecognizable. Everyone has to be immediately identifiable, this is the point.

Had an official to check the identity of a woman wearing a burqa, what would he do, would he try to compare the model of burqa on the id's picture with the one the woman is wearing at the moment? No face can be constantly covered: it's a matter of public safety. If some country doesn't follow this same principle within its boundaries, that's not our problem: I will not ask to bomb it in order to force this country to change habits. But I want be able to recognize everyone at my home.

I've read that a solution to the safety concern was if it were crucial to verify identities, that the woman in question could be taken to a separate area with a female official.

As for recognizing everyone at your home, unless you know every stranger on the street you meet, then I don't see how a burqa impedes your ability to recognize people. Obviously women in predominantly Muslim cultures have ways of recognizing friends and people important in their lives.

I think it comes down to a simple culture clash, and I'm surprised there's not more open-mindedness being displayed here. I'm surprised few people here realize how rude it is to expect a woman who wishes to remain covered, either by religious, cultural, personal, or other reasons, to expose herself for our own comfort.
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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Giovanni » 2009-12-05, 0:51

Boself wrote:This ban on minarets is most probably in breach with the ECHR.

Let's not forget that though the nice name the ECHR has been accused several times of working in the opposite direction of its name's meaning and it has been accused many times of being out of this world.
Lately the European Court of Human Rights asked Italy to remove the crucifix from the Italian classrooms, and this is ridicolous: a lot of European natioanl flags do follow a religious simbology, so what's the next step? Asking England to change flag because of the St. George cross? Asking the same thing to Greece, the Scandinavian countries and to the thoudands of European municipalities whose coat of arm has also a religious meaning?
Even the EU flag's designer was probably inspired on a Marian and Biblical simbology.
Of course Italy annunced the crucifix will stay in our classrooms and Bavaria said the same about the crucifix in the bavarian classrooms.
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Re: Switzerland bans construction of minarets

Postby Giovanni » 2009-12-05, 1:29

Narbleh wrote:
Giovanni wrote:
Just to clarify: the main problem in Europe with the burqa is that it covers the person's face completely and makes the person unrecognizable. Everyone has to be immediately identifiable, this is the point.

Had an official to check the identity of a woman wearing a burqa, what would he do, would he try to compare the model of burqa on the id's picture with the one the woman is wearing at the moment? No face can be constantly covered: it's a matter of public safety. If some country doesn't follow this same principle within its boundaries, that's not our problem: I will not ask to bomb it in order to force this country to change habits. But I want be able to recognize everyone at my home.

I've read that a solution to the safety concern was if it were crucial to verify identities, that the woman in question could be taken to a separate area with a female official.

This is not a solution at all. People must to be continuously identifiable, with a few of exceptions limited in time such as the Carnival. If I killed someone while wearing a burqa no testimony would recognize my face. Besides the official might need to recognize the person immediately without waiting for a female colleague to come.

Narbleh wrote:As for recognizing everyone at your home, unless you know every stranger on the street you meet, then I don't see how a burqa impedes your ability to recognize people.

What kind of reply is this? Officials have the right to be able to recognize and identify everyone immediately and in every moment, also from the facial traits. To cover the face permanently is a way to hide one's identity: it's not a definitive way, but it helps.

Narbleh wrote: I'm surprised few people here realize how rude it is to expect a woman who wishes to remain covered, either by religious, cultural, personal, or other reasons, to expose herself for our own comfort.

She can be covered as much as she wants, bot not in a way hiding her identity.
Besides you're not talking about a simple veil covering hair, eirs and neck, but about burqas and they're are generally imposed on women, even if they don't wish them: haven't you ever heard about talibans who killed women who didn't want to wear the burqa?
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