Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

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mansio
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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby mansio » 2009-02-24, 11:17

alijsh wrote:. مجوس means Zoroastrian. Arabs call(ed) Zoroastrians so.


The word majus is well known in Western culture. In the Bible (actually in the Gospels) the new-born Jesus is visited by a group of Magi coming from the East.
These people are considered as being Zoroastrian priests.

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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby Æxylis » 2009-03-12, 18:42

It's all well and good for somebody to have faith in something... As for a so-called 'religion'... well technically [by my definition anyway] there's a fine line between religion, philosophy, and politics... When philosophy is based in ideas on how the world works and how things came to be and should be, then it's somewhere between religion and philosophy, when a philosophy tends to control people's minds and enforce that something should be one way or another, it's politics...on the other hand, when religion gets tied together with politics to the point when the two are indistinguishable, then it's gone too far... Why should we allow something that could be mere 'mythology' and can't be proven except by scientific experimentation and research to rule our lives and to enforce a way of living on others who may not believe in the same set of beliefs... it's all fine for people to believe in Jesus or Muhammad or Buddha and what they were and/or stood for, but when we start living our lives by those beliefs to the point that we form laws around them and kill others for being 'heretics' or going against your own viewpoint, then religion has become evil and a thing to be avoided... History of a religion is one thing, but religious history has shown that wars and countries rise and fall over some silly belief that just because somebody else doesn't believe in the same religion as you they are inherently evil or should be rectified in some way... Besides, even with all this so-called 'proof' such as 'pieces of the true cross' or whatever they claim to have, unless you have a video of some miracle having been performed by such and such a person or something of that nature, then you have no scientific evidence to prove otherwise, faith alone simply doesn't cut it as peoples faiths differ and people could have written anything... people exaggerate the truth all the time and who knows if religious scriptures have been correctly translated over their thousands of years of history? Especially the ones that predate written history, or at least have been passed down through oral tradition over the generations... does the game 'telephone' come to mind anybody?
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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby Oleksij » 2009-03-12, 19:02

Jaakuuta wrote:It's all well and good for somebody to have faith in something... As for a so-called 'religion'... well technically [by my definition anyway] there's a fine line between religion, philosophy, and politics... When philosophy is based in ideas on how the world works and how things came to be and should be, then it's somewhere between religion and philosophy, when a philosophy tends to control people's minds and enforce that something should be one way or another, it's politics...on the other hand, when religion gets tied together with politics to the point when the two are indistinguishable, then it's gone too far... Why should we allow something that could be mere 'mythology' and can't be proven except by scientific experimentation and research to rule our lives and to enforce a way of living on others who may not believe in the same set of beliefs... it's all fine for people to believe in Jesus or Muhammad or Buddha and what they were and/or stood for, but when we start living our lives by those beliefs to the point that we form laws around them and kill others for being 'heretics' or going against your own viewpoint, then religion has become evil and a thing to be avoided... History of a religion is one thing, but religious history has shown that wars and countries rise and fall over some silly belief that just because somebody else doesn't believe in the same religion as you they are inherently evil or should be rectified in some way... Besides, even with all this so-called 'proof' such as 'pieces of the true cross' or whatever they claim to have, unless you have a video of some miracle having been performed by such and such a person or something of that nature, then you have no scientific evidence to prove otherwise, faith alone simply doesn't cut it as peoples faiths differ and people could have written anything... people exaggerate the truth all the time and who knows if religious scriptures have been correctly translated over their thousands of years of history? Especially the ones that predate written history, or at least have been passed down through oral tradition over the generations... does the game 'telephone' come to mind anybody?

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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby nicofr » 2009-03-12, 19:54

Yes, but here we just discuss the historical aspects with respect to the mythologies.

We are not arguing wether believers' believes are right.

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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby Æxylis » 2009-03-12, 20:13

well, some of my argument was directly related to the history and mythology of religions, in the sense that whether they are right or not there's not really any way you can ascertain historical accuracy unless you can either

1 - go back in time to see it yourself
2 - have a videorecording of the events
3 - have scientific evidence of the existence of certain things, and considering this last one, that would only apply to things like the time frame during which some culture existed, etc. Unless you have some form of fossilized dna evidence or something of the like, and a way to tie it to some particular individual, that's really the only way you can say that any of that is not just a bunch of hoakum... so as far as the history and the like, it's all just a bunch of mythology as far as science is concerned
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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby linguaholic » 2009-03-12, 22:27

Jaakuuta, nicofr said it was NOT about truth/historical accuracy.
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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby nicofr » 2009-04-07, 20:32

Hi,

I've finished reading Ramayana & watched a documentary about afghan soufis.

A thing that striked me, is the ressemblance between soufi rituals and brahman's mantra recitations. Same techniques, sames effects, same purpose : being close to god. I wonder if it is the same for chiite rituals (can't remember the name) and christian gospells.

I've been striked also by the fact that hindouism is almost as much a monotheism as catholicism! Because in fact there is only one suprem beeing (brahma) under various appearances, and there is also heaven and hell, in hindouism. Contrary to what I 've always heard the christ is not the first record of a prophet talking mainly about love and peace, contrary another common misconception, women's situations seems worst in hinduim than in islam.

One point that is not verry clear for me, is how hinduism evolved under the pressure of rissing buddhism. Any one has any fact on that?

Where you aware also of the fact that zoroastrian gods where hindu's demons and vice-versa? (well this is just a rhetorical question) It seems that the same happened with the demons of ramayana being just the king & people of sri lanka...

I would be interested if somone has details on faiths and religions in china prior to budhism and confucianism? In fact I'm wondering about women's status in "primitive" "religions".

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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby eskandar » 2009-04-07, 20:38

nicofr wrote:Where you aware also of the fact that zoroastrian gods where hindu's demons and vice-versa? (well this is just a rhetorical question)

I think you may be confused. Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic religion, worshiping only one God, Ahura Mazda.
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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby nicofr » 2009-04-07, 21:17

eskandar wrote:
nicofr wrote:Where you aware also of the fact that zoroastrian gods where hindu's demons and vice-versa? (well this is just a rhetorical question)

I think you may be confused. Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic religion, worshiping only one God, Ahura Mazda.


You are right of course. I was refering to pre-zoroatrian persian religion, from which zoroastrism evolved.

See this page, section "In an Indo-Iranian context" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asura

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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-04-07, 21:56

nicofr wrote:A thing that striked me, is the ressemblance between soufi rituals and brahman's mantra recitations. Same techniques, sames effects, same purpose : being close to god. I wonder if it is the same for chiite rituals (can't remember the name) and christian gospells.

I've noticed that too -- there seem to be some very similar mystical practices from Europe to India (and perhaps beyond) even if the underlying theology is very different. In Orthodoxy, there's the Hesychast tradition, which involves a lot of things, but there is an emphasis on experiencing God, often through methods that involve breathing techniques, focusing one's sight on the navel, reciting the short Jesus Prayer, all of which seem to be very "Eastern."

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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-04-01, 10:49

I just read a Swedish book from 2006 (Lena Einhorn: Vad hände på vägen till Damaskus?)that hypothesized that the story of Jesus took place twenty years later than usually supposed, thereby identifying the Jewish rebel known as "the Egyptian" with Jesus, and the 12 disciples/apostles with other rebel leaders at that time. When that uprising was crushed, the Egyptian vanished, and now the theory continues with Jesus becoming Saulus/St. Paul, creating non-Jewish Christianity during a few hectic decades. Paul was even recognised as the Egyptian in The Acts (21:37-38), when enduring a similar trial to the Jesus trial in the Gospels.

The moving back in time of the Gospels, was done in order to avoid negative connotations that could be damaging in the late first century.

Religious Christians seem to be negative to this idea, from what I can find on the internet, but it appears to be a constructive approach that could be useful in understanding more of the events back then.
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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby cantueso » 2012-04-09, 8:40

nicofr wrote:And what about the passage where jesus says to an hungry person that instead of giving him a fish, he would teach him fishing? I can't find it neither.

Just the other day I saw it attributed to Maimonides, and before I had known it as a quote from Marx with a second version saying:
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and you will ruin my business."
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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby cantueso » 2012-04-09, 8:54

KingHarvest wrote:
Post-NT, I'd recommend Athanasius to start with


Athanasius is important for both the development of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Augustine is also extremely important for the development of Christianity.


Yes, and Augustine's "Confessions" are great to read if only you leave out his prayers: wonderful stories about himself, about stealing apples, falling "in love" (not quite), about his mother, a precursor to Proust maybe.

KingHarvest, since you know so much, would you know about a theologian by the name of Kaufman-Kohler who wrote about 100 years ago? I saw him first in the Jewish Encyclopedia. I am sort of a Catholic, but this Kaufman is the clearest or most lucid thing I have ever seen on the history of religion, and I would like to know whether he is still influential.

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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, mythology and history

Postby MillMaths » 2012-11-20, 9:07

I hate hypocrites.
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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby Kenny » 2012-11-20, 16:41

We don't even know if Jesus really existed, so to then go on and make claims about his wife based on another piece of religious text is both silly and completely irrelevant in my opinion.

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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, mythology and history

Postby MillMaths » 2012-11-20, 22:40

Hypocrites make me sick.
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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby linguoboy » 2012-11-20, 22:52

Sophie wrote:Of course we do. There really is a historical figure called Jesus.

Show me his bones.
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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby Bijlee » 2012-11-20, 22:53

Sophie wrote:Of course we do. There really is a historical figure called Jesus. It's whether this historical figure has the supernatural attributes claimed by some relgious fanatics that is a moot point.


There isn't any evidence outside of the Bible writings. Except for a few dubious mentions that may not even be referring to Jesus or are likely to have been altered.
Though, I believe most historians still think that Jesus did exist anyway. I think you could make a case either way.

I'm definitely no historian, but this is what I've learned from my personal studies (of reading other people's studies :P).

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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby Kenny » 2012-11-21, 19:04

Yeah, I haven't ever seen or heard of any actual evidence for his existence - he isn't even mentioned by contemporary historians, afaik. We don't know whether or not he was an actual person, which is partly why I'm mindblown by the fact that so many people are following a system of beliefs based almost exclusively around this one guy who might or might not have existed, following a scripture that might or might not contain historically accurate descriptions (but Biblical scholars seem to agree that most of it is completely made up). The only reason people don't believe in another random set of texts is because they like the idea - for some really fucked up reason, since they don't seem to really think this whole "eternal existence with an immortal father who will never ever leave you alone" thing through... - and also because the texts they believe in say they come from God which is the equivalent of a language buff such as myself claiming I speak 66 languages, telling anyone who's asking for evidence that no evidence is required, since my claim is undoubtedly true, because I said so.

The Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. Now I know no thinking person will say that's a valid argument but some run-of-the-mill fundie Christians will give you that exact argument to a number of different questions simply because they don't have any answers and they can't even be bothered to try and think for themselves.

So, again, what proves the existence of Jesus? Religious texts don't count since they back the same agenda as the Bible: trying to make people believe and consider factual something which is most likely a collection of fairy tales.

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Re: Jesus, Muhammad and Buddhas, Mythology and History

Postby linguoboy » 2012-11-21, 20:15

Kenny wrote:Yeah, I haven't ever seen or heard of any actual evidence for his existence - he isn't even mentioned by contemporary historians, afaik.

He is mentioned by near-contemporaries, though, namely Josephus and Tacitus. (The mention in Tacitus is the ringer for many historians, even if it is dated only to 116 CE.)
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