Racism

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DissidentRage
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Re: Racism

Postby DissidentRage » 2021-06-20, 22:37

Yasna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Dude, he was THIRTEEN.

I don't think I'm the one suffering from "moral confusion" in this instance.

A thirteen year old who was behaving like a dangerous criminal. What don't you understand about this fact? The primary blame for this tragedy rests with his parents and his adult friend, who all completely failed this poor boy.


Okay George Zimmerman.
actually I support Rojava

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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2021-06-21, 3:15

Johanna wrote:You do know that this only happens in the US, right? At least in Western countries.

Because nowhere else will a person that age be seen as an acceptable target. Even armed 13-year-olds are usually brought in alive in Western Europe. No matter their background.

Actually, armed American Neo-Nazis are brought in alive after having murdered dozens of people in cold blood, including law enforcement officers, but for some reason it's impossible when it comes to an African-American teenager only suspected of carrying a gun without any kind of confirmation.

Yasna: Giving the worst kind of whataboutsim a face.

I will never understand why people hold such strong opinions about matters they know so little about. First, Adam Toledo was not African-American, he was Latino. Second, Toledo wasn't just suspected of carrying a gun --- he was carrying a gun right up until a second before he was shot. Oh, and he was wearing a baseball cap, running down a dark alleyway, and the height of a (short) adult, so it wasnt clear how young he was.

Third, the comparison between policing in Western European countries and the US is inappropriate because the environments being policed are vastly different. The prevalence of guns and violent criminals in the US makes for a far more perilous policing environment, which means the expectations police officers have as they carry out their duties differ substantially. Shooting deaths of police officers in Sweden are extremely rare, with only one since the turn of the century. In 2019, 44 police officers were shot to death in the US. Adjusting for time period and population, officers in the US are twenty-seven times more likely to be shot to death than officers in Sweden.

This is what Officer Stillman saw one second before firing a single shot at Toledo, in a country where officers are at a 27x higher risk of death from firearm than Sweden:

Image
Last edited by Yasna on 2021-06-21, 3:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Racism

Postby Johanna » 2021-06-21, 3:39

Ok, so a brown teenager carrying a gun and running away from the police.

Again, in most Western countries, he would have been apprehended the way white Neo-Nazi mass murderers and cop killers usually are in the US. Alive to stand trial.

Because in civilized countries, police officers go to school for 2.5 to 3 years, not a mere 2.5 to 6 months. And a lot of that training is about deescalating situations and learning where where the actual threat is. Reacting to where you think it is will simply not cut it.
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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2021-06-21, 15:14

Johanna wrote:Again, in most Western countries, he would have been apprehended the way white Neo-Nazi mass murderers and cop killers usually are in the US. Alive to stand trial.

I don't know why you keep repeating this nonsensical comparison. From what I can gather, Dylann Roof was cooperative during the entire course of his apprehension, which unsuprisingly is the single biggest factor determining whether a suspect is apprehended dead or alive. And forget Neo-Nazi mass murderers, a white 16-year old with a toy gun was shot dead by an officer just two months ago.

Because in civilized countries, police officers go to school for 2.5 to 3 years, not a mere 2.5 to 6 months.

The training of Chicago police officers typically takes 1 to 2 years to complete, which comes after the applicant has satisfied the requirement of "having a minimum of 90 semester credits from an accredited college/university, preferably in criminal justice or related fields OR having served in the US Armed Forced for three consecutive years OR having at least 30 semester credits and having served in the Armed Forces for a minimum of one continuous year."

And it's awfully rich having one's country deemed uncivilized by the citizen of a country with an epidemic of bombings.

And a lot of that training is about deescalating situations and learning where where the actual threat is. Reacting to where you think it is will simply not cut it.

Toledo turning to face the cop with a firearm in his hand was an actual threat. I know it's hard, but let's try to hold two thoughts in our head at the same time: 1. Toledo's behavior forced the cop to make a split-second, life-or-death decision and 2. The cop made the wrong decision.
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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2021-06-21, 16:38

Yasna wrote:
And a lot of that training is about deescalating situations and learning where where the actual threat is. Reacting to where you think it is will simply not cut it.

Toledo turning to face the cop with a firearm in his hand was an actual threat.

He never raised the firearm toward the cop. Meanwhile, open carry protestors walk around with their weapons held in front of their chests and the police somehow manage not to shoot them all on sight.

Yasna wrote:I know it's hard, but let's try to hold two thoughts in our head at the same time: 1. Toledo's behavior forced the cop to make a split-second, life-or-death decision and 2. The cop made the wrong decision.

I don't think anyone's having a hard time holding those two thoughts. The hard part seems to be you holding in your head that the reasons he made that wrong decision have everything to do with how the police in this country are trained, deployed, and held to account (or not, as the case may be). It took years of struggle to even get to the point where we have a video of this encountre. Even just a couple years ago, the cops would simply have lied and said they had to shoot him because he pointed the gun at them and that would be that.
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-06-21, 17:56

Yasna wrote:A thirteen year old who was behaving like a dangerous criminal. What don't you understand about this fact?

Here's what I don't understand: Suppose someone gives you a gun. Never mind why. Then the cops show up. The fuck are you gonna do about it? Sit there and shit your pants?
The primary blame for this tragedy rests with his parents and his adult friend, who all completely failed this poor boy.

Yeah, I guess his parents should never have taught him to try to surrender.
I will never understand why people hold such strong opinions about matters they know so little about.

BECAUSE HE WAS THIRTEEN FUCKING YEARS OLD!
Second, Toledo wasn't just suspected of carrying a gun --- he was carrying a gun right up until a second before he was shot. Oh, and he was wearing a baseball cap, running down a dark alleyway, and the height of a (short) adult, so it wasnt clear how young he was.

None of this is an excuse. The cop didn't even have any way of seeing the damn gun.
Third, the comparison between policing in Western European countries and the US is inappropriate because the environments being policed are vastly different.

You yourself just said Sweden has bombings.
From what I can gather, Dylann Roof was cooperative during the entire course of his apprehension, which unsuprisingly is the single biggest factor determining whether a suspect is apprehended dead or alive.

So a mass murderer should be arrested alive and a kid who did nothing but run away from an armed man of a force known to deliberately target POCs should be killed?
And forget Neo-Nazi mass murderers, a white 16-year old with a toy gun was shot dead by an officer just two months ago.

So when did that happen to a Neo-Nazi mass murderer?
Because in civilized countries, police officers go to school for 2.5 to 3 years, not a mere 2.5 to 6 months.

The training of Chicago police officers typically takes 1 to 2 years to complete, which comes after the applicant has satisfied the requirement of "having a minimum of 90 semester credits from an accredited college/university, preferably in criminal justice or related fields OR having served in the US Armed Forced for three consecutive years OR having at least 30 semester credits and having served in the Armed Forces for a minimum of one continuous year."

"They're supposed to be in school for 2.5-3 years, not 2.5-6 months."
"But they're trained for 1-2 years!"
:roll:
Toledo turning to face the cop with a firearm in his hand was an actual threat.

He was not a threat at all and did not commit any crime.

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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2021-06-22, 14:46

linguoboy wrote:He never raised the firearm toward the cop.

Right. That's the crux of the cop's mistake.

Meanwhile, open carry protestors walk around with their weapons held in front of their chests and the police somehow manage not to shoot them all on sight.

Compare the annual number of cops shot at by open carry protesters with the annual number of cops shot at by armed suspects, and then you'll have your answer.

Yasna wrote:I know it's hard, but let's try to hold two thoughts in our head at the same time: 1. Toledo's behavior forced the cop to make a split-second, life-or-death decision and 2. The cop made the wrong decision.

I don't think anyone's having a hard time holding those two thoughts. The hard part seems to be you holding in your head that the reasons he made that wrong decision have everything to do with how the police in this country are trained, deployed, and held to account (or not, as the case may be).

The nature of a split-second decision plus the fact that no two police-civilian encounters are the same means that no amount of training can completely eliminate this category of mistake. Would more training on this type of encounter have reduced the chance of the mistake? Sure, but we don't even know how Chicago police training for this type of encounter compares internationally. I don't know what police deployment has to do with this case, as the police response to Toledo and his friend was unremarkable until the very end. To the question of how might potential accountability have affected how quick the officer was to pull the trigger, that's the realm of pure speculation.

It took years of struggle to even get to the point where we have a video of this encountre. Even just a couple years ago, the cops would simply have lied and said they had to shoot him because he pointed the gun at them and that would be that.

Yes. Body cams and smartphone video are game changers.
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Re: Racism

Postby Johanna » 2021-07-03, 12:43

A police officer was shot and killed just the other day in my county.

The perpetrator was brought in without any drama, he simply got arrested. Despite being in a gang.

He is 17 years old, so legally responsible, and will have to face the courts and all of what that entails.
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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2021-07-03, 15:26

Johanna wrote:The perpetrator was brought in without any drama, he simply got arrested.

So he was cooperative while being apprehended?
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-07-03, 19:54

Yasna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:He never raised the firearm toward the cop.

Right. That's the crux of the cop's mistake.

No. The cop had no reason to chase him down in the first place.
Compare the annual number of cops shot at by open carry protesters with the annual number of cops shot at by armed suspects, and then you'll have your answer.

This justifies murdering innocent children?
The nature of a split-second decision plus the fact that no two police-civilian encounters are the same means that no amount of training can completely eliminate this category of mistake.

This is a ridiculous excuse. If you are well-trained, you will not chase a thirteen-year-old down an alley for no reason.
Would more training on this type of encounter have reduced the chance of the mistake? Sure, but we don't even know how Chicago police training for this type of encounter compares internationally.

The US is internationally infamous for the crimes of its police and its brutalization of POCs.
I don't know what police deployment has to do with this case, as the police response to Toledo and his friend was unremarkable until the very end.

It was flawed from the beginning because again, there was no reason to chase Toledo down in the first place. It's not clear there was any reason to chase his friend down, either.
To the question of how might potential accountability have affected how quick the officer was to pull the trigger, that's the realm of pure speculation.

Cops should be held accountable when they murder innocent victims. That is not speculation; that is justice.
Yes. Body cams and smartphone video are game changers.

Yet apparently, they are not enough to show you what is literally happening before your very eyes in the footage.
Johanna wrote:The perpetrator was brought in without any drama, he simply got arrested.

So he was cooperative while being apprehended?

He wasn't chased down and shot without reason, that much is for sure.
EDIT: Oh, and Toledo was cooperative, too. He was rewarded for this by being murdered.

EDIT2: And you know what else?
Even more impactful than increasing the police presence would simply be keeping the repeat offenders off the street, whether that be in a jail or mental institute.

That should include police officers.

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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2021-07-09, 21:54

From Vox, a deep dive into "race norming" in the medical field: https://www.vox.com/22528334/race-norming-medical-racism. This is the systematic practice of adjusting certain scores (many of which are used to determine what medical treatment someone receives) based on a person's racial classification. The article argues that, in most cases, the underlying science isn't robust and relies more on outdated notions of racial differences between populations than on recent rigorous peer-reviewed studies.

This is in the news currently because the National Football League, after being sued by retired players who were denied compensation for their injuries, recently announced it was going to stop using race norming in determining eligibility for payouts. Up till now, it had systematically assumed that Blacks had lower cognitive functioning than whites. Since the degree of compensation is determined by the difference between a claimant's current score on a cognitive function test and a presumed baseline, Blacks had to score lower in order to receive the same amount of money as retired white players. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/31554110/nfl-halt-race-norming-review-black-claims-1-billion-concussion-settlement
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