Racism

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linguoboy
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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2021-05-04, 2:20

Yasna wrote:By "racist at heart" I mean Hamner was strongly predisposed to racist attitudes. He was likely to become a racist regardless of what society he grew up in.

Ah, so it's a just-so-story.

Yasna wrote:
This is another weasly phrase. "Letting racism define your life" = "Pointing out that racism exists and causes actual harm".

That's not what that means and you know it.

I'm only telling you how I've seen it used, and that's always to silence people who point out racism.

Yasna wrote:
Yasna wrote:But all these millions of people are either allied with white supremacy or otherwise ill-intentioned, so what's the point of getting to know them and taking them seriously, right?

Some of them doubtless are. Most are just trying to keep their heads down so they don't become one of its targets.

Your idea of what it's like to be a racial minority in this country is stuck in about 1960.

In a lot of ways, when it comes to race, this country is still stuck in the 60s. Household wealth, for instance.

The black-white economic divide is as wide as it was in 1968

Yasna wrote:
The purpose of most white stereotypes of Asians (such as that they are "good at math") is to support the model minority myth, which functions as a wedge between Asians and Blacks in order to preserve white dominance. The resentment this creates between members of the two groups manifests in many ways, and one of them is the kind of open bigotry displayed by Hamner. No need for a mystical appeal to some essentialised spark of racism in his "heart"; this is the system working exactly as it was designed to do.

The math stereotype formed precisely because East Asians perform, on average, better in math than most other population groups in the US. It exists independently of whatever purposes some people have found for it. The interracial dynamics of 2021 were not "designed", they evolved.

"Evolved" is another weaselly expression which makes it sound like this is some atelic natural process. It's not.

There probably hundreds of ways in which "East Asians" differ "on average" from other population groups, but only a few of them get incorporated into the prevailing stereotype. Why? What purposes does focusing on these selected traits serve? What narratives do they reinforce? And who benefits ultimately?

Yasna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Why The Recent Violence Against Asian Americans May Solidify Their Support Of Democrats

tl;dr: The more Asian-Americans see themselves as targets of discrimination, the more likely they are to support the Democratic Party--and nearly 60% reported a rise in anti-Asian attitudes since the start of the pandemic in the USA.

If the Democratic Party would stop demonizing the police (you know, the people who are trying to keep the public safe), maybe.

By "demonizing" I guess you mean "pointing out the harm they do and their unwillingness to stop doing it"?

This past weekend, one of my neighbours told us how her father used to always say that the only difference between police and criminals is that police don't get put in jail. They'll both kill you, they'll both take your stuff, they'll both harass you for no reason. Sound like some big-city BLM liberal Democratic bullshit to you? Oops except her parents are poor white folks from Trump country.

A Gallup poll from last summer found that only 6% of USAmericans though that policing didn't need to be changed. The big party difference is in the split between those who think that "minor changes" will suffix and those who think the changes will need to be "major". For Democrats, that split is 89/10; for Republicans, 72/14; and for Independents, 36/60.

(Oh, and as for Democratic "demonisation" of police alienating Asian Americans, the poll found that 82% of them agree that "major changes" to policing are necessary, which is second only to the percentage of Black Americans, which is 88%.)

I'll leave you with a few more words of "demonisation". Can you guess which idiot Democrat said this?
I, like many other Black Americans, have found myself choking on my own fears and disbelief when faced with the realities of an encounter with law enforcement. At the age of 21, I was pulled over for simply having an improper headlight, and yet the officer felt the need to place his hand on his weapon and call me “boy.” Even today, while I have the privilege of serving as a United States senator, I am not immune to being stopped while driving at home in South Carolina or even while walking onto the grounds of the Capitol. Each time, I hold my breath and each time, I have been able to exhale and go about my business. Thank God!
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2021-05-04, 15:18

mōdgethanc wrote:In fact, this is so widespread I don't even like to call myself a feminist. There are lots of feminists I agree with, but so many self-styled "male feminists" turn to to be creeps that it's become a trope that women are well aware of.

Same. I also don't call myself "woke" or say I'm an "ally" of any particular population. That's really not for me to say. It's up to members of those groups to determine whether they consider me an "ally" or "safe" or someone who "gets it" and I don't expect them all to agree in any case.

mōdgethanc wrote:
White supremacy is not reducible to "stereotypes of East Asians". As I've explained before, it's an ideology which has at its core a racial hierarchy with white people at its apex. Stereotyping other races (hell, conceiving of "other races" at all) is one of the ways it defines and justifies that hierarchy.
This is about as good a definition of the term as I've ever seen - I might steal it in the future if it comes up.

Steal away!

mōdgethanc wrote:A lot of energy is wasted on debating semantics when it comes to contentious words like "racism".

A lot of times I think this is deliberate. The more you debate what "real racism" is, the less time and energy you have to actual tackle it. That's a net gain for anyone who benefits from racism.

mōdgethanc wrote:I truly believe the same thing or something like it happens to everyone sometimes, but we don't talk about it because it's embarrassing. It's time we did. Even if you don't think of yourself as a racist and would never willfully be racist (and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't) you can still have intrusive thoughts sometimes that are bigoted. The key thing is to check them and ask where is this even coming from? so they go away. I sometimes I have to remind myself of this when someone annoys me as well, e.g. that just become some random zoomer was trolling me isn't any excuse to think things that are ageist or homophobic. It doesn't make you a bad person to have prejudiced thoughts that are automatic and unbidden, it's how you respond to them that matters.

I think this is applicable to negative thoughts in general. You can't prevent them from arising, but you can and should ask what might have given rise to them and what you can do to change so that they're less likely to recur.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-05-08, 21:30

Yasna wrote:The point is that due to historical migration patterns,

"Historical migration patterns"?

What historical migration patterns? Who ever brought up historical migration patterns, and how are they relevant to this discussion?
the experiences of many Indian Americans (you included) are not representative of the experiences of racial minorities in this country, and thus you're not in a position to be saying things like "speaking as the only person who's clearly from what you're calling a minority group and who's been participating in this discussion, I can truthfully say the attitudes and mores of white America are actively shoved down our throats."

I'm saying white America has shoved its attitudes and mores down our throats, and your argument is "other people have different experiences from you! Therefore you're wrong! Minorities aren't treated badly!"

This is like if the crime rate in Boston went up substantially and you pointed this out after getting mugged on the street, and then someone said, "But there are other people who weren't mugged! Therefore you're wrong! The crime rate never went up!"
Do you think most of them feel that "the attitudes and mores of white America are actively shoved down [their] throats"?

No. I think they were actively shoved down their throats.
I realize this is based on religion not ethnicity

Have you forgotten that lots of Indian Americans are not Hindu? You know, like pretty much my entire family?
By "racist at heart" I mean Hamner was strongly predisposed to racist attitudes. He was likely to become a racist regardless of what society he grew up in.

linguoboy wrote:This is another weasly phrase. "Letting racism define your life" = "Pointing out that racism exists and causes actual harm".

That's not what that means and you know it.

That's not how racism works, and you know it.
linguoboy wrote:
Yasna wrote:But all these millions of people are either allied with white supremacy or otherwise ill-intentioned, so what's the point of getting to know them and taking them seriously, right?

Some of them doubtless are. Most are just trying to keep their heads down so they don't become one of its targets.

Your idea of what it's like to be a racial minority in this country is stuck in about 1960.

Again with the white guy acting like the authority on what it's like to not be white.

It hasn't changed that much since 1960.
The math stereotype formed precisely because East Asians perform, on average, better in math than most other population groups in the US. It exists independently of whatever purposes some people have found for it. The interracial dynamics of 2021 were not "designed", they evolved.

No.
Stereotypes don't form just because something is true.
Lots of Roma are multilingual. This isn't part of stereotypes about Roma.
Lots of Asians go into the fine arts, cooking, and the army. None of these is part of stereotypes about Asians.
Lots of Jews oppose Israel in various ways. This isn't part of stereotypes about Jews.
Lots of white people are experts on certain foreign countries where they have done research for decades. This isn't part of stereotypes about white people.
And so on and so forth.
the police (you know, the people who are trying to keep the public safe)

The police are not trying to keep the public safe. If you seriously still believe this, you've been paying even less attention to the news over the past several years than I have. I don't know how that's even possible.

Most fears regarding affirmative action are unfounded. However, I think there are very fair concerns that the white people who are in power in universities and other spaces are actively discriminating against Asian Americans, and perhaps also Latino Americans, citing affirmative action as an excuse without a) discriminating against white Americans, b) improving the situation for any ethnic group or community, or c) making any effort to support students belonging to any ethnic minority.

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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2021-05-10, 3:03

linguoboy wrote:
Yasna wrote:By "racist at heart" I mean Hamner was strongly predisposed to racist attitudes. He was likely to become a racist regardless of what society he grew up in.

Ah, so it's a just-so-story.

I'll grant you this: There's not enough information to come to a conclusion one way or the other. Another possibility is that he is a bully who chooses Asian women as his targets simply because they have the smallest physical stature of any population group. Which is racist, but not of a kind that requires sweeping assumptions about the degree to which "white supremacy" permeates (talk about a weasel word) society and influences its members.

Yasna wrote:The math stereotype formed precisely because East Asians perform, on average, better in math than most other population groups in the US. It exists independently of whatever purposes some people have found for it. The interracial dynamics of 2021 were not "designed", they evolved.

"Evolved" is another weaselly expression which makes it sound like this is some atelic natural process. It's not.

There probably hundreds of ways in which "East Asians" differ "on average" from other population groups, but only a few of them get incorporated into the prevailing stereotype. Why?

On a fundamental level, the degree of a group trait's conspicuousness is what determines whether it becomes a stereotype. Sure, other factors including nefarious ones can affect how much certain stereotypes end up getting emphasized, but that's generally the extent of it.

By "demonizing" I guess you mean "pointing out the harm they do and their unwillingness to stop doing it"?

This past weekend, one of my neighbours told us how her father used to always say that the only difference between police and criminals is that police don't get put in jail. They'll both kill you, they'll both take your stuff, they'll both harass you for no reason. Sound like some big-city BLM liberal Democratic bullshit to you? Oops except her parents are poor white folks from Trump country.

A Gallup poll from last summer found that only 6% of USAmericans though that policing didn't need to be changed. The big party difference is in the split between those who think that "minor changes" will suffix and those who think the changes will need to be "major". For Democrats, that split is 89/10; for Republicans, 72/14; and for Independents, 36/60.

(Oh, and as for Democratic "demonisation" of police alienating Asian Americans, the poll found that 82% of them agree that "major changes" to policing are necessary, which is second only to the percentage of Black Americans, which is 88%.)

10/89 for Democrats.

First, there's no denying that by 2021 standards, policing in the US was pretty terrible in the 20th century. Second, I'd love to see that poll redone now in the midst of this wave of anti-Asian attacks. Attitudes are changing in ways you might not expect. Third, by "demonizing police" I mean promulgating the myth that incidents like the killing of George Floyd are anything other than extremely rare events. Police killings of unarmed black victims represented about 0.1% of African Americans killed in 2019.*

I'll leave you with a few more words of "demonisation". Can you guess which idiot Democrat said this?
I, like many other Black Americans, have found myself choking on my own fears and disbelief when faced with the realities of an encounter with law enforcement. At the age of 21, I was pulled over for simply having an improper headlight, and yet the officer felt the need to place his hand on his weapon and call me “boy.” Even today, while I have the privilege of serving as a United States senator, I am not immune to being stopped while driving at home in South Carolina or even while walking onto the grounds of the Capitol. Each time, I hold my breath and each time, I have been able to exhale and go about my business. Thank God!

I want to say it was the same guy who said this:
When America comes together, we’ve made tremendous progress. But powerful forces want to pull us apart. A hundred years ago, kids in classrooms were taught the color of their skin was their most important characteristic. And if they looked a certain way, they were inferior.

Today, kids again are being taught that the color of their skin defines them, and if they look a certain way, they’re an oppressor. From colleges to corporations to our culture, people are making money and gaining power by pretending we haven’t made any progress at all, by doubling down on the divisions we’ve worked so hard to heal.

You know this stuff is wrong. Hear me clearly: America is not a racist country. It’s backwards to fight discrimination with different types of discrimination. And it’s wrong to try to use our painful past to dishonestly shut down debates in the present.


*https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883
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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2021-05-10, 3:15

vijayjohn wrote:The police are not trying to keep the public safe.

It's truly frightening how insulated from reality one must be to believe such utter nonsense.

History Through Our Eyes: Oct. 8, 1969, police strike, chaos follows
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-05-12, 18:30

I'm glad you're frightened when I keep up with news

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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2021-05-12, 22:53

Yasna wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:The police are not trying to keep the public safe.

It's truly frightening how insulated from reality one must be to believe such utter nonsense.

History Through Our Eyes: Oct. 8, 1969, police strike, chaos follows

"What do you think will really sell your argument for 21st-century US-style overpolicing?"
"I've got just the ticket: A 53 year-old newspaper article from an entirely different country that was basically in the throes of a socialist revolution and linguistic civil war at the time."
"Perfect!"
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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2021-05-13, 1:56

linguoboy wrote:"What do you think will really sell your argument for 21st-century US-style overpolicing?"

Who's trying to sell that argument?
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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2021-06-09, 15:31

Are Activists Protecting Asians from Hate—or Protecting Their Narrative of White Supremacy from Criticism?

What does this mean in practice? According to journalist Kayla Hui, this means that Asians must resist endorsing the most obvious source of relief from street crime: the police. “Policing only catalyzes racial tensions between Asian and Black communities,” Hui writes. By way of alternative, Hui urges “bystander and de-escalation training to learn how to intervene when anti-Asian hate and harassment occurs.” And in the long run, “Asian solidarity with Black and brown communities [would serve as] a catalyst for tackling white supremacy and the systems that continuously uphold and enable racism.” [...]

The signatories believe that collecting crime statistics and empowering the police more generally fails to address “the structural conditions that lead to violence against marginalized communities.” Obviously, they are free to argue for such a wholesale reorientation of American public policy (even if it flies in the face of recent evidence). But it is disingenuous to pretend that they are doing so in the service of protecting Asian people from physical attacks, or protecting the interests of Asians more generally. From first to last, this manifesto reads as a defence of a certain ideological stance. And to the extent that Asians are treated as autonomous political actors, it is on the expectation that they will play their assigned role in expressing “solidarity” with other groups.

Indeed, one wonders what the true goal is here. Advocates will tell you that their fight against white supremacy is a means to protect hate-crime victims. But often it seems that means and end have become reversed, and that these crimes now serve as a prop in the larger ideological campaign against our supposedly white-supremacy-saturated culture—a campaign that Asians themselves are now being pressured to join. Whatever you may think of this ideology, it seems doubtful that its champions are motivated primarily by the need to protect Asians from violence.
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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2021-06-10, 16:49

Yasna wrote:
What does this mean in practice? According to journalist Kayla Hui, this means that Asians must resist endorsing the most obvious source of relief from street crime: the police. “Policing only catalyzes racial tensions between Asian and Black communities,” Hui writes. By way of alternative, Hui urges “bystander and de-escalation training to learn how to intervene when anti-Asian hate and harassment occurs.” And in the long run, “Asian solidarity with Black and brown communities [would serve as] a catalyst for tackling white supremacy and the systems that continuously uphold and enable racism.” [...]

I have to say I agree with her on this. In 30 years in Chicago, I can't remember ever seeing an assault (racial or otherwise) stopped by the police. When I have tried to get authority figures involved (such as when seeing harassment on the El), they've been worse than useless and I would have been better off intervening myself, despite the risks. Having training in how to do that effectively and making it a widespread social expectation would do far more to reduce street crime than relying on the police to do anything.
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-06-12, 1:36

Yasna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:"What do you think will really sell your argument for 21st-century US-style overpolicing?"

Who's trying to sell that argument?

"For" can mean 'regarding'
Are Activists Protecting Asians from Hate

Yes. If not for Black activism, we would not be allowed to exist in this country at all.

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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2021-06-14, 23:33

linguoboy wrote:I have to say I agree with her on this. In 30 years in Chicago, I can't remember ever seeing an assault (racial or otherwise) stopped by the police. When I have tried to get authority figures involved (such as when seeing harassment on the El), they've been worse than useless and I would have been better off intervening myself, despite the risks.

It's no wonder you never see police stopping an assault, because it's extremely rare that someone is crazy enough to assault someone with a police officer around. That's the whole point of a stronger police presence. And this tactic is especially effective when you're dealing with a limited number of locations where their presence can be concentrated (areas with a preponderance of East Asians in this case).
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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2021-06-15, 15:51

Yasna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I have to say I agree with her on this. In 30 years in Chicago, I can't remember ever seeing an assault (racial or otherwise) stopped by the police. When I have tried to get authority figures involved (such as when seeing harassment on the El), they've been worse than useless and I would have been better off intervening myself, despite the risks.

It's no wonder you never see police stopping an assault, because it's extremely rare that someone is crazy enough to assault someone with a police officer around. That's the whole point of a stronger police presence. And this tactic is especially effective when you're dealing with a limited number of locations where their presence can be concentrated (areas with a preponderance of East Asians in this case).

But you're still talking about (in the case of Chicago) a force of 12,000 in a city of 2.7 million, 7% of which identifies as Asian. The cops are mostly tied down in the high-crime areas of the South and West side where--not to trivialise the violence against East Asians--there are deadly assaults almost daily. Moreover, the Asian population is really not that concentrated, as this dot map based on census figures shows. (The green dots represent Asians. Since they don't face the same degree of housing discrimination as other demographic groups, they tend to spread out more.)

http://www.radicalcartography.net/index.html?chicagodots

So I stand by what I said about relying predominately on the police to stop assaults on Asians not being the best strategy. We need a broader-based solution.
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-06-16, 22:21

Yasna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I have to say I agree with her on this. In 30 years in Chicago, I can't remember ever seeing an assault (racial or otherwise) stopped by the police. When I have tried to get authority figures involved (such as when seeing harassment on the El), they've been worse than useless and I would have been better off intervening myself, despite the risks.

It's no wonder you never see police stopping an assault, because it's extremely rare that someone is crazy enough to assault someone with a police officer around.

The police themselves assault innocent people often, and there is plenty of documented evidence to prove it.

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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2021-06-16, 22:30

linguoboy wrote:So I stand by what I said about relying predominately on the police to stop assaults on Asians not being the best strategy. We need a broader-based solution.

Even more impactful than increasing the police presence would simply be keeping the repeat offenders off the street, whether that be in a jail or mental institute. Almost every one of these crimes against a random civilian is committed by someone with a history of criminality. In some of the most egregious recent cases a man with 67 prior arrests kicked a woman down a stairwell and was released again. A man with 40 prior arrests punched an Asian woman out of no where... and was released again. As the NYC police commissioner said: "What's the common denominator? People arrested multiple, multiple, multiple times, and released."
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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2021-06-17, 14:42

vijayjohn wrote:The police themselves assault innocent people often, and there is plenty of documented evidence to prove it.

Especially in Chicago. Here they straight-up murder them, as young as thirteen. But they're not Asians, so I guess we don't care about that.
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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2021-06-17, 21:07

linguoboy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:The police themselves assault innocent people often, and there is plenty of documented evidence to prove it.

Especially in Chicago. Here they straight-up murder them, as young as thirteen. But they're not Asians, so I guess we don't care about that.

You are suffering from a severe case of moral confusion if you can't tell the difference between random civilians being assaulted on the one hand, and a boy who was running away from police down a dark alleyway with a gun (that was minutes earlier used in a crime by his friend) being shot by an officer who was slightly too quick to pull his trigger. Adam Toledo did not deserve to die, but he was not "innocent" by any stretch of the imagination, and he was not "straight-up murdered" by any reasonable parsing of that phrase.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka


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