Discrimination

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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-06-29, 6:09

There was an article lately in an issue of Time magazine about the recent rise of both antisemitism and Islamophobia in Europe. The article focused mainly on antisemitism in France and Sweden in particular but also mentioned similar occurrences elsewhere in Europe and talked a little bit about how both antisemitism and Islamophobia are on the rise, as well as about solutions that people were coming up with to combat either antisemitism or both.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Prowler » 2020-02-01, 22:14

I've noticed that with the latest Coronavirus thing, some people online have been sharing videos and making jokes about chinese eating gross stuff like rats, insects, etc. Basically people are saying "Chinese are dirty, so what's the surprise that they're getting sick?"

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Re: Discrimination

Postby Gormur » 2020-06-22, 18:39

I find it weird but interesting how Natives and Inuit are discriminated against but racism is a term reserved for other ethnicities

Is this to do with historical/cultural reasons or is there more to it?

Like if someone calls me names it's discrimination. If they take away my rights then that's persecution. When would it become racism? :hmm:
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2020-06-22, 18:49

Gormur wrote:I find it weird but interesting how Natives and Inuit are discriminated against but racism is a term reserved for other ethnicities

It's not.

https://indigenouspeoplesatlasofcanada.ca/article/racism/
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Re: Discrimination

Postby Gormur » 2020-06-22, 18:53

Interesting. From what I understand then, racism is political persecution
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2020-06-22, 19:11

Gormur wrote:Interesting. From what I understand then, racism is political persecution

Not all political persecution is racist and not all racism takes the form of political persecution.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby DissidentRage » 2020-06-24, 13:34

Racism is systemic, prejudice is personal.
actually I support Rojava

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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-06-28, 6:48

I saw a North Indian guy deny casteism and pretend that "Bengal and Kerala leftists" are just as bad as Modi fanboys. Both sides! :roll:

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Re: Discrimination

Postby DissidentRage » 2020-06-29, 6:34

that sounds familiar
actually I support Rojava

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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-07-04, 3:20

Oh? In what way?

Edit: Or do you just mean the "both sides" thing? Like how Donald Chump and his ilk like blaming both sides when racists kill black people?

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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2021-04-10, 1:34

I'm not sure where this really belongs, but since it involves multiple marginalised groups, this seems like the most suitable thread. CW: If you're the kind of person who considers "wokeism" some kind of secular religion, you should probably keep scrolling.

I want to share this because I think it's a good concrete example of what it looks like to examine your own privilege so you can work trying to take up a little less space in society. My flatmate needs a primary care doctor to prescribe medicines for him. He tried to see his old one from the last time he lived in Chicago, but apparently there was some confusion and he's not available. We live just two blocks from a nonprofit clinic that does a lot of LGBTQIA+ outreach so he decided to see who he could find there.

He read over the profiles and narrowed the candidates down based on their qualifications and areas of expertise. One of the finalists, a Filipino, seemed like a good fit. But then he thought about how, if someone had Tagalog as their primary language, this was the only doctor they could see while he, as a native English-speaker, could talk to anyone on staff. He didn't like the idea of taking up a slot which would be of more benefit to someone from a marginalised community.

One of the other finalists was an extremely well-qualified woman with an interest in trans issues. But, again, it occurred to him that many cis or trans women and trans men don't feel comfortable with cis male physicians, either due to past abuse or because they just don't think they have as much understanding of their bodies. So he didn't like the idea of commandeering her time either. In the end, he chose a white male doctor.

So, yes, this is discriminatory behaviour, in the sense that he took the race and gender of these people into account when decided who to see (and ended up with a white man as a result). But in this case, both the intent and the impact are presumably positive: The Asian-American and the woman doctors will have more time for less-privileged patients (or for doing other work of interest to him) and his care won't suffer as a consequence.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-04-13, 9:03

linguoboy wrote:But then he thought about how, if someone had Tagalog as their primary language, this was the only doctor they could see while he, as a native English-speaker, could talk to anyone on staff. He didn't like the idea of taking up a slot which would be of more benefit to someone from a marginalised community.

I can appreciate the intent, at least, but are there really Filipinos in the US who don't speak English? I thought Filipinos used English just about as much as we Indians do. I have trouble imagining an Indian immigrant specifically seeking out an Indian doctor in the US due to language concerns (if said doctor happened to be a family member, that would be a different story, but I have no idea whether this is an experience Filipinos have). Is this a concern Filipinos have expressed before?
But in this case, both the intent and the impact are presumably positive: The Asian-American and the woman doctors will have more time for less-privileged patients (or for doing other work of interest to him) and his care won't suffer as a consequence.

On the flip side, will patients actually seek them out? Do Asian-American and woman doctors have as many business opportunities as their white and/or male counterparts? Will these doctors see enough patients and thus make enough money? (Or does it not matter because the insurance companies get most of the money anyway?).

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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2021-04-13, 13:52

vijayjohn wrote:
linguoboy wrote:But then he thought about how, if someone had Tagalog as their primary language, this was the only doctor they could see while he, as a native English-speaker, could talk to anyone on staff. He didn't like the idea of taking up a slot which would be of more benefit to someone from a marginalised community.

I can appreciate the intent, at least, but are there really Filipinos in the US who don't speak English? I thought Filipinos used English just about as much as we Indians do. I have trouble imagining an Indian immigrant specifically seeking out an Indian doctor in the US due to language concerns (if said doctor happened to be a family member, that would be a different story, but I have no idea whether this is an experience Filipinos have). Is this a concern Filipinos have expressed before?

First of all, due to family reunification policies, I'm sure there are. What proportion it is of the Filipino community here, I couldn't say. (According to the ACS, 45,000 people in Cook County speak predominately Tagalog in the home. The proportion of "speakers of Asian languages" who speak English "less than 'very well'" is about 44%. Even assuming it's smaller for Filipinos than other groups, that's still hundreds and hundreds of people.)

Second, just because one uses English a lot doesn't mean it's the language they're most comfortable in. The floor of the hospital where my husband stayed the most often during his last year was predominately staffed by older Filipinos and they generally spoke to each other in Tagalog even though their English was fluent.

Third, there may be factors which go beyond language. Asians might worry that white doctors won't take their concerns seriously or won't understand them. And in the currently climate, they might just not want to be left alone with a white man under any circumstances.

(And, FWIW, I don't have any trouble imagining a South Asian immigrant seeking out a South Asian doctor. But then there are a quarter million South Asians in Illinois, most of them in the Chicago suburbs. It's entirely possible here to live your daily life without needing to speak English--in fact, you can even practice a trade. When I wanted a kurta made, a friend took me to a tailor in Little India who didn't speak English and negotiated the entire transaction in Urdu.)

vijayjohn wrote:
But in this case, both the intent and the impact are presumably positive: The Asian-American and the woman doctors will have more time for less-privileged patients (or for doing other work of interest to him) and his care won't suffer as a consequence.

On the flip side, will patients actually seek them out? Do Asian-American and woman doctors have as many business opportunities as their white and/or male counterparts? Will these doctors see enough patients and thus make enough money? (Or does it not matter because the insurance companies get most of the money anyway?).

If this were private practice, I might have some of those same concerns. But it isn't, it's a nonprofit clinic that charges according to ability to pay. The fact that my flatmate is going there at all is a net win for them because they'll be fully reimbursed through his health insurance. The doctors won't have any less to do; these two in particular will just have one less regular client and more walk-ins. (Whether that's a net positive for them on a personal level is harder to determine: Are educated middle-class white men a welcome break to them or a distraction from their reasons for working there in the first place?)
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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-04-13, 16:49

I can see all of these things you've mentioned for Filipinos or Asians applying to Indians as well, but I still have trouble imagining Indians specifically seeking out Indian doctors. I know Indians who struggle with English, and I'm well aware of the cultural barriers, but even then I couldn't see it happening. IME for Indians, seeing a doctor is a very specific situation, not really comparable to seeing a tailor, for example. Seeing a doctor is a matter of life and death in a way that seeking other services generally isn't. We're unlikely to see a doctor at all unless we personally believe it's wise or necessary for some reason. I'm also still curious as to whether Filipinos actually say this is what they want.

EDIT: I could understand this more easily if perhaps the (Indian/Filipino/Asian) patient already knew the doctor personally, perhaps as a friend before seeking out their professional services. From my perspective as an Indian, anyway, there are serious issues of trust that are not necessarily resolved merely by shared ethnicity/language/culture.
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2021-04-13, 17:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2021-04-13, 16:58

vijayjohn wrote:I'm also still curious as to whether Filipinos actually say this is what they want.

So am I. How would you propose finding out?
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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-04-13, 17:00

linguoboy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I'm also still curious as to whether Filipinos actually say this is what they want.

So am I. How would you propose finding out?

Ask them?

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Re: Discrimination

Postby linguoboy » 2021-04-13, 17:48

vijayjohn wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I'm also still curious as to whether Filipinos actually say this is what they want.

So am I. How would you propose finding out?

Ask them?

Be more specific. The people in question are precisely those with the least English and I don’t speak any Philippine languages.
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Re: Discrimination

Postby md0 » 2021-04-13, 17:56

If my experience is of any use here, as a Greek-speaking immigrant in Germany, I seek out specifically Greek-speaking doctors even though I could more easily find English-speaking doctors (and sure, English is a non-native language to me, but I speak it to a sufficiently high level). The main reason is that matters of health require such nuance and are of such high stakes that I prefer to have a doctor who can understand me 100% and not just 98% (let alone a 30% that would be if I visited German-speaking doctors).
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Re: Discrimination

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-04-20, 6:36

linguoboy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I'm also still curious as to whether Filipinos actually say this is what they want.

So am I. How would you propose finding out?

Ask them?

Be more specific. The people in question are precisely those with the least English and I don’t speak any Philippine languages.

Those aren't the only people you can ask to get relevant answers, though. Maybe try asking Filipinos in general whether they actively seek out a native speaker of Tagalog when they need medical assistance and/or whether they know of someone who doesn't speak English very well and would do that. (If you'd like to try proving my impressions about Indians wrong for an added bonus, ask them, too :D).


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