Racism

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 22682
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-02, 2:38

What is this loose way in how "white supremacy" is used these days?

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2029
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Gender: male
Location: Boston
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2018-12-02, 18:50

linguoboy wrote:I used to feel that way, too, but the more closely you examine how systematic racism works, the harder it becomes to argue that they ultimate goal is to ensure that, regardless what happens, white people always end up on top. Whenever it looks like it might not turn out that way, we go and change the rules so it does.


Oh, we're suggesting that successful races have nebulous, sinister designs to keep other races under their yoke? I want to try!

I used to feel that way, too, but the more closely you examine how systematic racism works, the harder it becomes to argue that their ultimate goal is to ensure that, regardless what happens, Jews always end up on top. Whenever it looks like it might not turn out that way, the Jews go and change the rules so it does.

Did I do it right?
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10587
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Racism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-02, 23:58

SJWs are literally Hitler.
vijayjohn wrote:What is this loose way in how "white supremacy" is used these days?
White supremacy is commonly used to mean fringe beliefs like neo-Nazism or neo-Confederacy, but as an academic term it's sometimes used to mean any society where there is an informal racial hierarchy with whites on top. In this sense it's basically another word for structural racism. I hear this usage increasingly these days, probably to emphasize the continuity between the West's white supremacist history and its race relations today.

John McWhorter has opined the term is over-used and should not be substituted for "racism".

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 22682
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-03, 0:29

So what difference does it make for you?

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10587
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Racism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-03, 1:29

vijayjohn wrote:So what difference does it make for you?
For me personally, very little. For broader discussions of racism, I think it's potentially confusing and disruptive to use the same term for societies like the present-day United States that we would use for the Confederacy, Apartheid-era South Africa, and Nazi Germany. I would rather call it "white superiority", but that will never catch on. So I'd just call it racism.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 22682
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-03, 4:21

Are the Confederacy, South Africa under apartheid, and Nazi Germany comparable? (And to what extent is South Africa not under apartheid even today?)

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10587
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Racism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-03, 6:17

vijayjohn wrote:Are the Confederacy, South Africa under apartheid, and Nazi Germany comparable? (And to what extent is South Africa not under apartheid even today?)
They're different in a lot of ways obviously, but they all had legally entrenched racial discrimination. That's what white supremacists like the alt-right want. The problem is that there is no clear point at which a society becomes racially supremacist, but more like a scale. For example, North Korea is a de facto ethnostate and this is promoted by government propaganda, but not official policy as far as I know. I named those societies above because they're unambiguous examples.

As for South Africa today, I can't answer that.

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5108
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Poznań
Country: PL Poland (Polska)

Re: Racism

Postby Saim » 2018-12-03, 7:09

Yasna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I used to feel that way, too, but the more closely you examine how systematic racism works, the harder it becomes to argue that they ultimate goal is to ensure that, regardless what happens, white people always end up on top. Whenever it looks like it might not turn out that way, we go and change the rules so it does.


Oh, we're suggesting that successful races have nebulous, sinister designs to keep other races under their yoke? I want to try!

I used to feel that way, too, but the more closely you examine how systematic racism works, the harder it becomes to argue that their ultimate goal is to ensure that, regardless what happens, Jews always end up on top. Whenever it looks like it might not turn out that way, the Jews go and change the rules so it does.

Did I do it right?


It's funny that mogdethanc was talking about overusing the term white supremacy and here you are basically attributing Nazi discourse to Linguoboy.

What's even funnier is that you're the one that watches YouTube channels that have been known to spread nazi conspiracy theories. Of all the people to fash-jacket someone on this forum...

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 22398
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2018-12-03, 15:51

Yasna wrote:Oh, we're suggesting that successful races have nebulous, sinister designs to keep other races under their yoke?

"Successful races"? Really?

The GOP has openly admitted in court documents that they are systematically disenfranchising Black voters in order to keep their candidates in power and that's all just a big joke to you?

I suspect there's no convincing you on this topic. You have too much invested in believing that your "success" is entirely due to your own efforts and has nothing at all to do with how your demographic characteristics align with those of the people who control access to power in this society.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2029
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Gender: male
Location: Boston
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2018-12-03, 19:58

linguoboy wrote:The GOP has openly admitted in court documents that they are systematically disenfranchising Black voters in order to keep their candidates in power and that's all just a big joke to you?

This was the sort of specific, durable evidence of systematic racism I was looking for in the other thread. Thank you. As it pertains to this topic though, I must point out that local GOP officials ≠ white people. AIPAC ≠ Jews. The Nation of Islam ≠ black people. So why is it acceptable to treat white people as a monolithic entity with sinister designs?

I suspect there's no convincing you on this topic. You have too much invested in believing that your "success" is entirely due to your own efforts and has nothing at all to do with how your demographic characteristics align with those of the people who control access to power in this society.

I never said that and I don't believe that.

Saim wrote:What's even funnier is that you're the one that watches YouTube channels that have been known to spread nazi conspiracy theories.

?
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 22682
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-03, 20:32

Yasna wrote:So why is it acceptable to treat white people as a monolithic entity with sinister designs?

Why is it acceptable for you to put words in other people's mouths when you're the one always complaining about other people doing this to you? No one said white people are a monolithic entity, no one treated them as a monolithic entity, no one said it was acceptable to treat them as a monolithic entity, no one believes white people are a monolithic entity (I mean ffs, the person you just said this to is white), and you're the only one calling white privilege "sinister designs."

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10587
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Racism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-04, 1:28

I can't speak for anyone else here but I imagine most here would agree that the problem with racism in current year is that it's not a grand design. Aside from a few open white supremacists, it's more like prejudices that most have but might not even be aware of. It was a lot easier to identify racism when the racists were wearing armbands and shouting that minorities need to go to the gas chamber. It's a lot different in a society which claims to be tolerant and multicultural and where white privilege means boring stuff like being statistically more likely to be approved for a loan. That's why it's so easy to ignore or claim it's not a problem. Trying to convince a skeptic that racism still exists is like arguing that global warming is real with someone who argues that it snowed yesterday.

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5108
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Poznań
Country: PL Poland (Polska)

Re: Racism

Postby Saim » 2018-12-04, 12:36

I don't think white people are a monolithic entity. Some of my closest friends are whites.

User avatar
Prowler
Posts: 1837
Joined: 2013-07-19, 5:09
Gender: male
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2018-12-06, 23:16

mōdgethanc wrote:I can't speak for anyone else here but I imagine most here would agree that the problem with racism in current year is that it's not a grand design. Aside from a few open white supremacists, it's more like prejudices that most have but might not even be aware of. It was a lot easier to identify racism when the racists were wearing armbands and shouting that minorities need to go to the gas chamber. It's a lot different in a society which claims to be tolerant and multicultural and where white privilege means boring stuff like being statistically more likely to be approved for a loan. That's why it's so easy to ignore or claim it's not a problem. Trying to convince a skeptic that racism still exists is like arguing that global warming is real with someone who argues that it snowed yesterday.


It seems a lot of people have different ideas of what is racist or not. So it gets confusing. And then there's the theories about systemic racism, such as White privilege. That term also is very debatable. I mean, a privilege would be like me getting a discount based on being of a certain age or something. Being more likely to be subjected to racism or distrust by the majority is more like getting your rights violated. In Western societies, citizens of each country regardless of "race" have the same rights. And even if they practice a different religion or are LGBT they still have better rights than in most non-Western countries. You'll tell me now that being a White heterossexual male is the best thing to be due to being the majority in those countries, and thus even if a minority is racist against you you and your group still outnumber minorities. Whether "privilege" is the right word to label such a thing or not it's hard to say. Because minorities also are not monoliths and many even argue against the idea of White privilege or argue that they haven't suffered any terrible discrimination in their lives. And you can see lots of non-White people having good jobs in Western nations. "White privilege" as a label/term would have made sense for something like South Africa under Apartheid, since minorities factually had less rights than Whites did there.

I don't think there's a big lobby or group of powerful White people trying to "hold down" minorities in Western countries as a whole, though.

I mean, sure I'd rather be White in Germany, Russia or Italy than being a Arab or Black. Being White, racism would be less of a concern, although White minorities get discriminated in some places, like Poles in the UK have faced some hostility recently and some who dislike them probably have no problems with Black people or Indians.

I guess you could say it's a "majority privilege" type of thing? If I now went to South Africa, Japan or Saudi Arabia I could also possibly suffer from discrimination when it comes to entering nightclubs or renting an apartment. Japan is known for being a tough place for non-Japanese at times.

The only countries I'd be afraid to get my ass kicked or even getting murdered in based on my appearance alone would be Zimbabwe or South Africa. But SA has some tourism and most tourists end up being fine there. As for Zimbabwe... well I can't say I plan going there anytime soon.

I think if I died and could be reborn again and pick what to look like but couldn't be White this time I'd pick Japanese or Korean. Because being Black, South Asian or Middle Easterner or an Aborigine would make me more statistically likely to be born in a very poor family or country than being European or East Asian. That would be my prime concern/fear.

Whether all of this is a "privilege" or not, I guess it depends on what kind of terminology you use. shrugs

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 22682
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-07, 1:28

Oh yay, a clueless white person wondering what white privilege is and not bothering to do any research on it!
Prowler wrote:I mean, a privilege would be like me getting a discount based on being of a certain age or something.

That is one kind of privilege, yes.
In Western societies, citizens of each country regardless of "race" have the same rights.

Europeans seem to like saying this a lot, but words on paper saying that all citizens are equal are meaningless if not backed up by actions. It's cute to say that all people in the US, for instance, "have the same rights," but it's meaningless when people in the US are forbidden from buying a house in certain parts of the country because of their race, prevented from voting because of their race, physically attacked or even killed because of their race, fired from their jobs because of their race, having their entire careers ruined because of their race...Hell, you can even have things done to you (including people killing you) because of someone else's race.
You'll tell me now that being a White heterossexual male is the best thing to be due to being the majority in those countries, and thus even if a minority is racist against you you and your group still outnumber minorities.

No, that's not how it works. White people around the world are consistently given certain privileges that POCs are not, even in countries (or just settings) where POCs form the majority. Same with men, and same with heteros.
minorities also are not monoliths and many even argue against the idea of White privilege

Okay really, why do white people keep being so hung up on this? (Also note the irony that white people are a minority globally...). I mean, seriously, do I have to scream the obvious? NON-WHITE PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE. They disagree on things just like white people do. It's exactly as relevant a point as saying that some white people argue that white people have privilege. But no one ever points that out, because it doesn't matter that they're white, and it matters just as little that some people who say white people don't have special privileges happen not to be white.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10587
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Racism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2018-12-07, 7:17

Prowler wrote:It seems a lot of people have different ideas of what is racist or not. So it gets confusing. And then there's the theories about systemic racism, such as White privilege. That term also is very debatable. I mean, a privilege would be like me getting a discount based on being of a certain age or something. Being more likely to be subjected to racism or distrust by the majority is more like getting your rights violated. In Western societies, citizens of each country regardless of "race" have the same rights. And even if they practice a different religion or are LGBT they still have better rights than in most non-Western countries. You'll tell me now that being a White heterossexual male is the best thing to be due to being the majority in those countries, and thus even if a minority is racist against you you and your group still outnumber minorities. Whether "privilege" is the right word to label such a thing or not it's hard to say.
Being better off than others for something you didn't earn is the definition of privilege.
Because minorities also are not monoliths and many even argue against the idea of White privilege or argue that they haven't suffered any terrible discrimination in their lives. And you can see lots of non-White people having good jobs in Western nations. "White privilege" as a label/term would have made sense for something like South Africa under Apartheid, since minorities factually had less rights than Whites did there.
No, Apartheid was a clear example of white supremacy. Privilege is too mild a term for it. Whites were objectively on top and it was fundamental to their society.
I don't think there's a big lobby or group of powerful White people trying to "hold down" minorities in Western countries as a whole, though.
I'm not sure if anyone believes that except maybe a few conspiracy theorists.
I mean, sure I'd rather be White in Germany, Russia or Italy than being a Arab or Black. Being White, racism would be less of a concern
Sounds like a privilege to me.
I guess you could say it's a "majority privilege" type of thing? If I now went to South Africa, Japan or Saudi Arabia I could also possibly suffer from discrimination when it comes to entering nightclubs or renting an apartment. Japan is known for being a tough place for non-Japanese at times.
Privilege is based on being the most dominant group, to my understanding. This isn't necessarily based on numbers though.

Note that I'm not pushing a strong view that whites are privileged; I think that we are in many ways, but the extent of it can be debated. I'm trying to point out how your own arguments seem to imply that you already think white privilege exists, you just aren't calling it by that term.

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2029
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Gender: male
Location: Boston
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2018-12-07, 7:33

Saim wrote:I don't think white people are a monolithic entity. Some of my closest friends are whites.

Is this a parody of "I'm not racist. I have a black friend"? I can't tell.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5108
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Poznań
Country: PL Poland (Polska)

Re: Racism

Postby Saim » 2018-12-12, 14:24

Yasna wrote:
Saim wrote:I don't think white people are a monolithic entity. Some of my closest friends are whites.

Is this a parody of "I'm not racist. I have a black friend"? I can't tell.


Yes.


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest