Racism

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linguoboy
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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2017-09-12, 18:05

Johanna wrote:For one, there is no such thing as DWB ("driving while black") in Northern Europe

Are we sure? What research has actually been done in this area? (In areas with very small Black populations, it may be difficult to get statistically significant results.)

Johanna wrote:and where black people are more likely to be pulled over, at least they won't get shot more often than whites or other people of colour.

That's true for Europeans in general because of their superior policing model. But the shootings are only the tip of the iceberg. In the USA, many more people are affected by the fact that Black people are prosecuted at a higher rate for the same offences (notably drug possession) and receive longer sentences on average. Again, are we sure this isn't happening to dark-skinned people in Northern Europe?

Johanna wrote:You're much less isolated in our socially vulnerable areas too, for the simple fact that we have decent public transport.

I'm not sure how you define "decent public transport". Most major cities in the USA have reasonably efficient transit systems. I noticed the contrast less in the inner cities than in the suburbs and exurbs. This is a growing issue in the USA since poverty is migrating outward from inner-city areas (where most social service agencies are located) to places that are far more spread out than is typical in Europe where greenbelts and other forms of strict zoning serve to keep the population more concentrated.
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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2017-09-12, 18:21

I haven't read through it yet, but this report from the Open Society Foundation claims to have found evidence of racial and ethnic profiling in Denmark, the Netherlands, France, and Germany, among other countries: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/reports/ethnic-profiling-european-union-pervasive-ineffective-and-discriminatory. A study they conducted in Paris from November 2007 to May 2008, for instance, found "those who appeared to be of Arab origin were at least 7.5 times more likely than whites to be stopped, and that those perceived to be black — of sub-Saharan African or Caribbean origin — were six times more likely than whites to be stopped." Moreover, "while the police were generally polite or neutral in their interactions with those they stopped, the study said, blacks and Arabs who were stopped were much more likely than whites to be frisked or detained."
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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2017-09-13, 7:42

I have seen discussions about racism in many different forums and online communities and have seen people who claim to be of African descent saying that it's rather common in major European cities for police officers to profile black people, Indian people, South East Asian people, etc. near bars and nightclubs. They tend to assume they're drug dealers or up to no good in general. Not to mention security/bouncers not letting them in some clubs. All anecdotes and you can never tell on the Internet who is being serious or not, but it wouldn't really surprise me if it happened more often than we think/do. thing is, the media doesn't discuss it really.

Ofc it seems hard to get more accurate stats for European nations since European nations usually don't ask for your race on census forms. They just ask for your nationality and religion(not every country asks for it, mind you). If anything, they can go by nationality to make such stats, but that still leaves a rather large margin of error.

As for the less isolation in Europe, it can't be just due to public transport. Reminder that USA is as big as Europe or almost so while European countries are rather small compared to USA except for Russia, obviously. Hard to drop a bunch of people 500 km away form any town or city here.

I have no idea how good policing is in European countries compared to USA. But generally it seems lots of people, especially younger people, don't really trust/like police officers here. I've met many people around my age and younger than me who had bad experiences with the police before. While some were just going through their anti-authority phase that's common among the youth, others probably had really bad experiences that made them dislike the police in general, and I'm not even talking about racism here.

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Re: Racism

Postby Johanna » 2017-09-13, 19:11

linguoboy wrote:
Johanna wrote:For one, there is no such thing as DWB ("driving while black") in Northern Europe

Are we sure? What research has actually been done in this area? (In areas with very small Black populations, it may be difficult to get statistically significant results.)

Johanna wrote:and where black people are more likely to be pulled over, at least they won't get shot more often than whites or other people of colour.

That's true for Europeans in general because of their superior policing model. But the shootings are only the tip of the iceberg. In the USA, many more people are affected by the fact that Black people are prosecuted at a higher rate for the same offences (notably drug possession) and receive longer sentences on average. Again, are we sure this isn't happening to dark-skinned people in Northern Europe?

I did say the attitudes aren't necessarily worse in the US, so I'm not disagreeing. Most of the difference lies in how policing works in our respective countries, just like you say.

That being said...

The reason DWB isn't a thing here is that checks mostly go like this:
  1. Everyone is directed to the side of the road.
  2. Police officer asks for your driving licence, you hand it to them, they check it.
  3. Police officer asks you to blow into one of those alcohol sensors.
  4. You're in the clear and drive off.
Most of the time when someone is pulled over by a lone patrol, the cops are driving along and spot a car ahead whose driver clearly isn't following the rules, so they set out to pull the car over. The thing is that there are a lot of incentives from high up to throw the book on anyone and everyone who violates the traffic laws and regulations, so letting whites go under the same circumstances will bite you in the ass sooner or later. There are also always two cops in a car, and very few would be prepared to lie for their partner.

It's true that people of colour get convicted somewhat more often and get somewhat harsher sentences than Sven Svensson for things like drug possession, but compared to the US? Even your average middle-class white person would probably be better off if they were judged and sentenced by the same standards applied to people of colour here.

The most likely outcome for being found guilty of drug possession is that you get probation and either community service or house arrest, and maybe a fine on top of that. In ether case, you get to keep your job and your life, at least as long as you pass regular drug tests. For any prison sentence shorter than two years, the house arrest alternative is the preferred one.

Really serious crimes, like murder, are rare enough that it's hard for racial bias to come into play, there simply isn't any such thing as a routine murder trial. In all of Sweden there were 106 murders last year, and considering that any national-level media keeps a very close eye on any murder trial - regardless of what they publish - the court can't afford to be seen as anything but impartial.

One thing that does have to do with attitudes though is that racism here works differently, and it's not so much about skin colour as it is about cultural markers. A black person speaking AAVE is simply American and doesn't really have to learn Swedish in order to be accepted - and might actually be discouraged from doing so - while someone from Somalia is told either learn the language quickly or go back home...

linguoboy wrote:
Johanna wrote:You're much less isolated in our socially vulnerable areas too, for the simple fact that we have decent public transport.

I'm not sure how you define "decent public transport". Most major cities in the USA have reasonably efficient transit systems. I noticed the contrast less in the inner cities than in the suburbs and exurbs. This is a growing issue in the USA since poverty is migrating outward from inner-city areas (where most social service agencies are located) to places that are far more spread out than is typical in Europe where greenbelts and other forms of strict zoning serve to keep the population more concentrated.

We have decent public transport in our suburbs too, our socially vulnerable areas haven't been in the inner cities since the 60's or so. And people on social security usually have local public transport passes covered.

What do you mean by "exurbs"? I don't think I've seen this word before.
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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2017-09-13, 19:57

Johanna wrote:What do you mean by "exurbs"? I don't think I've seen this word before.

Wikipedia wrote:The expression exurb (for "extra-urban") was coined by Auguste Comte Spectorsky, in his 1955 book The Exurbanites, to describe the ring of prosperous communities beyond the suburbs that are commuter towns for an urban area. Most exurbs serve as commuter towns, but most commuter towns are not exurban.
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-13, 21:19

Here in Austin, public transportation is very useful if you're going downtown because parking spaces are fucking impossible to find downtown. However, it's pretty much limited to bus service (there is no subway and never has been), which has been getting increasingly expensive FWIR and seems impractical for going anywhere else. If you wanted to get from downtown to my house without just driving the whole way in a car, you would still have to either drive fifteen minutes from the nearest park and ride or walk in the hot sun and risk getting run over.
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Re: Racism

Postby Johanna » 2017-09-13, 21:20

linguoboy wrote:
Johanna wrote:What do you mean by "exurbs"? I don't think I've seen this word before.

Wikipedia wrote:The expression exurb (for "extra-urban") was coined by Auguste Comte Spectorsky, in his 1955 book The Exurbanites, to describe the ring of prosperous communities beyond the suburbs that are commuter towns for an urban area. Most exurbs serve as commuter towns, but most commuter towns are not exurban.

So the parts of the metropolitan area that don't belong to the urban area proper?
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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2017-09-14, 6:11

How do you guys feel about race nationalists and separatists? There seem to be some quite vocal ones in USA. What do they really want, anyway? And how many of them would you say are hardcore racists in denial?

Europe has nationalists but most of the time they're just ordinary nationalists who want to look after their country or region interests. Racialists and race separatists aren't that big in the Old Continent. This White Nationalism thing seems to be mostly an American thing. I guess it also exists in countries like Brazil, Australia, etc?

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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-14, 18:45

European nationalism (or really, nationalism in the context of most countries) is baffling to me. When I was growing up, the only kind of nationalism I ever knew anything about was Indian nationalism. This meant the independence movement, which was tied to the notion that India had the right to be a self-governing nation (hence nationalism) instead of just being Britain's favorite slave and that being granted autonomy wasn't enough if that still didn't stop the British from trying to divide us continually, levying taxes on us for shit we made, denying us access to certain places in what was supposed to be our own country, etc.

So far, whenever I see any discussion of nationalism in Europe, all I've ever seen is people bashing Roma and/or Jews or barring Syrian refugees from entering while allowing complete foreigners from much further away unrestricted access to their countries when they don't even particularly need it, due to arbitrary cultural pretenses of Syrians somehow being more foreign just because they're not European. Both of those are definitely racism, period. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that American race nationalism or whatever is racism, either.

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Re: Racism

Postby Saim » 2017-09-14, 19:01

In Europe all the self-described nationalists or members of "national parties" are either separatists or racists (or both in a couple of cases, thinking about Italy's Lega Nord and Flanders's Vlaams Belang).

I can't imagine what it means to want to "to look after [one's] country or region interests" in a real, political sense. What is their programme? Does it then follow that non-nationalistic parties actively go against their country or region's interests?

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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2017-09-14, 19:26

Prowler wrote:How do you guys feel about race nationalists and separatists? There seem to be some quite vocal ones in USA. What do they really want, anyway? And how many of them would you say are hardcore racists in denial?

I'm not sure what makes someone a "hardcore racist" as opposed to...whatever other flavours of racists you think there are. Like Vijay, I don't see how you can be a "race nationalist" without being a racist.

As for what they "really want", there's no simple answer because you're dealing with a diverse range of viewpoints rather than a unified movement. Some I think just want an end to any policies which they see as detrimental to white supremacy, such as all forms of affirmative action. Others are calling for outright genocide of non-whites. I think all are anti-immigrationist to some degree.
Prowler wrote:Europe has nationalists but most of the time they're just ordinary nationalists who want to look after their country or region interests. Racialists and race separatists aren't that big in the Old Continent. This White Nationalism thing seems to be mostly an American thing. I guess it also exists in countries like Brazil, Australia, etc?

I find this grimly amusing, since a lot of the rhetoric and symbolism of the new wave of White Suprematism in the USA has been lifted from the Identitarian movement in Europe. The Traditionalist Youth Network, for instance, just wholesale adopted their ideology and organisation.

vijayjohn wrote:European nationalism (or really, nationalism in the context of most countries) is baffling to me. When I was growing up, the only kind of nationalism I ever knew anything about was Indian nationalism. This meant the independence movement, which was tied to the notion that India had the right to be a self-governing nation

European nationalists are generally Eurosceptic. (Think of the BNP, for instance.) White suprematists in the USA show a similar distrust of internationalism and international organisations. I'm sure you remember the freakout in Texas over Jade Helm two years ago? This was rooted in the black helicopter conspiracy theory of the 90s which often implicated the United Nations in wanting to destroy US sovereignty.
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-14, 19:35

linguoboy wrote:I'm sure you remember the freakout in Texas over Jade Helm two years ago?

Nope, never heard of it until just now, possibly because Republican politicians down here say so many kinds of crazy shit that keeping track of it seems almost useless.

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Re: Racism

Postby Aurinĭa » 2017-09-14, 21:27

linguoboy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:European nationalism (or really, nationalism in the context of most countries) is baffling to me. When I was growing up, the only kind of nationalism I ever knew anything about was Indian nationalism. This meant the independence movement, which was tied to the notion that India had the right to be a self-governing nation

European nationalists are generally Eurosceptic. (Think of the BNP, for instance.)

While others are pro-EU, like the SNP, which wants an independent Scotland within the EU.

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Re: Racism

Postby Johanna » 2017-09-15, 21:32

Aurinĭa wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:European nationalism (or really, nationalism in the context of most countries) is baffling to me. When I was growing up, the only kind of nationalism I ever knew anything about was Indian nationalism. This meant the independence movement, which was tied to the notion that India had the right to be a self-governing nation

European nationalists are generally Eurosceptic. (Think of the BNP, for instance.)

While others are pro-EU, like the SNP, which wants an independent Scotland within the EU.

I've thought about the SNP lately, and I'm not sure I'd classify them as nationalist in the classic sense.

Don't get me wrong, they're very much separatist, but apart from that they're pretty much your average social democrats, and if the politics of England had lined up more with those of Scotland, they most likely wouldn't have pressed as hard for independence.

I think that's the main difference between regional separatists and nation-state nationalists, the former are tired of seeing their culture and language always playing second fiddle, while the latter are mostly outraged that theirs isn't the only fiddle to be heard any more.
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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2017-09-16, 8:15

I believe there are different degrees of prejudice and racism. A "hardcore racist" to me is a KKK member or pretty much anyone who feels their race or ethnicity is superior and the others are all trash/subhuman.

Most people are more subtle in their prejudices and are willing to put differences aside when it comes to living in society, from my observation.

Linguoboy, well just because American white nationalists have taken inspiration from some Europeans and the nazis and fascists, doesn't mean necessarily that White nationalism is a big ideology in the Old Continent overall. European nationalists and xenophobes certainly might not like muslims(regardless of their race, but Middle Easterners get it worse, I'd say), blacks, etc. but a lot of that xenophobia is also aimed at other White people. In England, there has been a lot of xenophobia against Polish people. Bulgarians and Romanians don't have the best reputation up there either, from what I hear. And those are white people. And we all know how Serbs and Croats feel about each other and they're not exactly very different people and cultures. Afaik, the main difference between both is religion. Serbs are Orthodox whilst Croatians are Catholic. That doesn't stop nationalists from both countries from despising each other. There is definitely racism against non-White people as well, but many of those nationalists don't seem to like large waves of immigration from fellow European countries either.

In USA, it seems that things are more racial among nationalistic groups. It's like Americans of European ancestry have basically gotten rid of the overwhelming majority of their original culture and adopted this "American culture" and now seem to identify as simply "White people". At one point, Italians, Germans Irish, etc. were treated like second class citizens there. Is it true they also weren't considered "White" or seen as such by the WASPs btw? And speaking of which, when exactly did we start referring to Europeans as "White", Sub-Saharan Africans as "Black", East/South East Asians as "Yellow/Asian/Oriental" etc? And why is "Brown" used to describe many different kinds of people that have nothing in common with each other such as South Asians, Middle Easterners, mixed race Latin Americans?

Also, do those White nationalists also oppose immigration from other White people into USA? Like, how do they view Spanish speaking White Latin Americans, for example?

Tbh, White Americans might as well be an ethnic group of its own to me. Ethnicity isn't just about genetics, but about culture and such. It doesn't really matter that White Americans come from different European countries since they end up marrying with people who descend from a different ethnicity and their family's original culture diminishes each generation until ti gets wiped. When Americans make jokes and stereotypes about different races, none of the things said about "White people" really make sense. They're obviously talking about some White American type of culture. I mean, obviously I know each European ethnic group has its own history and experience in USA and the Americans in general, but I think that's vanishing away with time. And if White people in USA truly become a minority, they'll probably just focus on what they have in common("being "White") to make sure their interests are met.

Btw, a couple of interesting experiences of mine regarding differences between North Americans and Europeans: I remember once mentioning Shawarma in a convo and some guy from Canada telling me Shawarma were "like tacos in a sense that us White people make fools of ourselves when eating them" and I was like "wat :| ". Many Europeans in online games and chats also like using the word n***** in a tongue-in-cheek manner of referring to black people or in an endearing way which often SHOCKS North Americans while Europeans are like "what's the big deal? They say that word in rap songs all the time." It's something that gets lost in translation, I guess.

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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-16, 20:37

Prowler wrote:I believe there are different degrees of prejudice and racism. A "hardcore racist" to me is a KKK member or pretty much anyone who feels their race or ethnicity is superior and the others are all trash/subhuman.

Most people are more subtle in their prejudices and are willing to put differences aside when it comes to living in society, from my observation.

Are they? Didn't you once say your mom said she would never let a black person into y'all's house? So much for "putting differences aside when it comes to living in society"!

Also, how does it matter if people are more subtle in their prejudices? How does that guarantee that they don't still think their race or ethnicity is superior and all others are trash or subhuman?

No, I think this "different degrees of prejudice" narrative is a convenient tactic for white people to distance themselves from violent manifestations of racism. Just because you don't run around shooting or lynching black people doesn't mean you can't still be just as racist as people who do.
a lot of that xenophobia is also aimed at other White people.

Oh dear God, Prowler, come on. :lol: White people discriminating against each other does not have the same history behind it as white people discriminating against non-white people, and you know it doesn't.
In USA, it seems that things are more racial among nationalistic groups. It's like Americans of European ancestry have basically gotten rid of the overwhelming majority of their original culture and adopted this "American culture" and now seem to identify as simply "White people". At one point, Italians, Germans Irish, etc. were treated like second class citizens there.

Tbh, White Americans might as well be an ethnic group of its own to me. Ethnicity isn't just about genetics, but about culture and such. It doesn't really matter that white Americans come from different European countries since they end up marrying with people who descend from a different ethnicity and their family's original culture diminishes each generation until ti gets wiped. When Americans make jokes and stereotypes about different races, none of the things said about "White people" really make sense. They're obviously talking about some White American type of culture. I mean, obviously I know each European ethnic group has its own history and experience in USA and the Americans in general, but I think that's vanishing away with time. And if White people in USA truly become a minority, they'll probably just focus on what they have in common("being "White") to make sure their interests are met.

I think I agree with most of this, but you know, white American culture is still fundamentally European in its roots. You know that when I took US history in high school, the very first thing we studied was not the Native Americans, not the Spanish occupation, not any other colonial occupation, and not even British colonization but the Protestant Reformation of all things? It was something that took place nowhere near any part of the Americas. And yet, it's important background information for the purposes of understanding part of the history of (relatively early) immigration into - and takeover of - the Americas.
Is it true they also weren't considered "White" or seen as such by the WASPs btw?

That I do not know.
And speaking of which, when exactly did we start referring to Europeans as "White", Sub-Saharan Africans as "Black", East/South East Asians as "Yellow/Asian/Oriental" etc?

I think maybe the 19th century.
And why is "Brown" used to describe many different kinds of people that have nothing in common with each other such as South Asians, Middle Easterners, mixed race Latin Americans?

Because of our perceived skin color, not to mention the fact that we're easily confused for each other. Lots of South Asians have been confused for Middle Easterners (and murdered because of that), and my brother used to be confused for a Mexican when he was in high school.
Also, do those White nationalists also oppose immigration from other White people into USA? Like, how do they view Spanish speaking White Latin Americans, for example?

To my knowledge, they fail pretty hard at making such distinctions. IME Americans in general either confuse them with WASPs (if they speak English well enough and don't do anything as far as they can see that deviates from American cultural norms) or lump them together with all other Latin Americans. I don't see any reason why white nationalists in the US would do anything different from that.
Btw, a couple of interesting experiences of mine regarding differences between North Americans and Europeans: I remember once mentioning Shawarma in a convo and some guy from Canada telling me Shawarma were "like tacos in a sense that us White people make fools of ourselves when eating them" and I was like "wat :| ".

It's just a self-deprecating joke about eating foods that are still perceived as somewhat foreign. I really don't know what more to say about that.
Many Europeans in online games and chats also like using the word n***** in a tongue-in-cheek manner of referring to black people or in an endearing way which often SHOCKS North Americans while Europeans are like "what's the big deal? They say that word in rap songs all the time." It's something that gets lost in translation, I guess.

It shocks us because it makes those Europeans sound clueless as to just how much offense they would cause especially if they said this in front of a black person. The fact that black people use it doesn't mean it's okay for everyone and their dog to use it. It's a word that's deeply tied to the history of slavery in this country.

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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2017-09-16, 22:42

vijayjohn wrote:Are they? Didn't you once say your mom said she would never let a black person into y'all's house? So much for "putting differences aside when it comes to living in society"!

Also, how does it matter if people are more subtle in their prejudices? How does that guarantee that they don't still think their race or ethnicity is superior and all others are trash or subhuman?

No, I think this "different degrees of prejudice" narrative is a convenient tactic for white people to distance themselves from violent manifestations of racism. Just because you don't run around shooting or lynching black people doesn't mean you can't still be just as racist as people who do.


She never said that in public. The only people who heard her saying that were me and my grandmother(her mother). If she was a total stranger to me I'd have no clue how she felt about certain things. For all I know, people I see walking down the street might think bad things. I can't read minds nor do I go around asking people how they feel about certain groups of people.

Ofc you don't need to "lynch black people" to be racist. But someone having some prejudice in them doesn't automatically mean they'll silently stand by watching black people being lynched. Remember that All in Family episode where Archie Bunker accidentally joins the KKK and feels uncomfortable about it, eventually leaving it? Archie Bunker, as we all know, was a quite prejudiced old man who had trouble filtering himself, but he didn't endorse burning crosses.

hardcore racists are people who make it their life mission to be racist and fight for "racial superiority" or wtv. That's a very vocal minority of people. Most people in the world have priorities in life.

vijayjohn wrote:Oh dear God, Prowler, come on. :lol: White people discriminating against each other does not have the same history behind it as white people discriminating against non-white people, and you know it doesn't.


I don't recall saying the English dislike of Poles was the same thing as what Europeans did to Blacks in the past. And how does that change the fact there is xenophobia among different European groups as well? If you want to talk about xenophobia and racism against people of other races then by all means do it. But let's not pretend only one race of people can be racist and that there isn't xenophobia among races either.

vijayjohn wrote:Because of our perceived skin color, not to mention the fact that we're easily confused for each other. Lots of South Asians have been confused for Middle Easterners (and murdered because of that), and my brother used to be confused for a Mexican when he was in high school.


Well that's just ignorance and poor education for them to lump all those people together as if they were one thing.

vijayjohn wrote:To my knowledge, they fail pretty hard at making such distinctions. IME Americans in general either confuse them with WASPs (if they speak English well enough and don't do anything as far as they can see that deviates from American cultural norms) or lump them together with all other Latin Americans. I don't see any reason why white nationalists in the US would do anything different from that.

I don't expect rednecks to know better, but educated people also make such mistake? So that myth about Americans thinking Spain and Mexico are the same thing isn't much of a myth after all? :P

There are also white supremacists who only consider certain Europeans to be White. I believe they're called Nordicists. Non-Germanic speaking people to them are all Moors, Turks and Mongols. :lol:

vijayjohn wrote:It's just a self-deprecating joke about eating foods that are still perceived as somewhat foreign. I really don't know what more to say about that.


Well, I get the "you sound fun at parties" thrown at me sometimes. So that might be it.

vijayjohn wrote:It shocks us because it makes those Europeans sound clueless as to just how much offense they would cause especially if they said this in front of a black person. The fact that black people use it doesn't mean it's okay for everyone and their dog to use it. It's a word that's deeply tied to the history of slavery in this country.


Well, when you hear that word all over the media and being used in popular rap songs, you can't blame others for assuming it's just a cool slang word for "friend" or "mate". Many people outside of USA don't know the origins of that word. I first heard of that word when I was like 13-14 years old? I think it was in that movie Men of Honor with DeNiro and Cuba Gooding Jr. Have you seen that film? Cuba gets called and referred to by that word in that movie, and I had no idea what was going on or what it meant. I don't recall ever being told about that word in school. In my 7th grade history textbook, American history was like one page about the revolution. I think there was also one page or so where MLK and the Civil Rights movement was mentioned in my 9th grade or 12th grade textbook but that's it. I think many Europeans get their "American history lessons" from Hollywood movies. And for the record, it is kind of odd for many american black people to adopt a term they found so offensive as a slang work that's part of their daily vocabulary. And it's also odd to me how ****a and ****er are considered two different things. Vocabulary and linguistics are a funny thing, I guess and words change meaning. I mean, the word gay used to mean happy. It's in the Flinstones theme song.

I think it's mostly a taboo in English speaking countries. All languages have slurs, but none that seems to match n*****. And I always found it odd how that word is such a taboo that even quoting it will give you flack. In the media they call it "the n-word", for example.

I think in South Africa, the "forbidden word" is kaffir. No idea if the word n***** is used there or not. I mean there's lots of English speakers there so maybe?

Anyway, you can't automatically expect a non-American to know the meaning of "the n word".

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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-17, 2:48

Prowler wrote:She never said that in public. The only people who heard her saying that were me and my grandmother(her mother).

What difference does that make? It's still a view she holds, and it proves she doesn't put differences aside when it comes to living in a society with black people in it.
Ofc you don't need to "lynch black people" to be racist. But someone having some prejudice in them doesn't automatically mean they'll silently stand by watching black people being lynched. Remember that All in Family episode where Archie Bunker accidentally joins the KKK and feels uncomfortable about it, eventually leaving it? Archie Bunker, as we all know, was a quite prejudiced old man who had trouble filtering himself, but he didn't endorse burning crosses.

I haven't seen that one, I don't think, but sure, it doesn't automatically mean that. It doesn't automatically mean they won't, either, though. See: Donald Chump.
hardcore racists are people who make it their life mission to be racist and fight for "racial superiority" or wtv. That's a very vocal minority of people. Most people in the world have priorities in life.

Okay, but most hate crimes aren't committed by people who make that their goal in life. Thus, from the perspective of those of us who aren't white, it doesn't really matter whether people are dedicating their lives to racism or they just subconsciously hold racist beliefs. They can still hurt or even kill us for no other reason.
I don't recall saying the English dislike of Poles was the same thing as what Europeans did to Blacks in the past. And how does that change the fact there is xenophobia among different European groups as well?

I never said it changes that fact, either. I'm saying just because that xenophobia exists doesn't mean it's comparable to how non-white people in Europe are treated, and you just juxtaposed those two things as if they were the same thing when they're not. Why else would you say, "A is true, but B is also true" if you know A and B are not comparable at all?
Well that's just ignorance and poor education for them to lump all those people together as if they were one thing.

Well, yeah. Most people are pretty ignorant and poorly educated, and racial classifications (especially informal ones) don't really make much scientific sense. I mean, for that matter, "black" and "Indian" don't make a whole lot of sense, either, given that the set of people encompassed by either of those two categories don't necessarily have anything at all to do with each other, but white people lumped us into categories like that, so that's what we have.
I don't expect rednecks to know better, but educated people also make such mistake? So that myth about Americans thinking Spain and Mexico are the same thing isn't much of a myth after all? :P

Are you kidding? Even my mom doesn't know the difference between "Spanish" and "Mexican." She says "Spanish" all the time when she means "Mexican." I try to correct her when she says that, but she ain't listenin'.
There are also white supremacists who only consider certain Europeans to be White. I believe they're called Nordicists. Non-Germanic speaking people to them are all Moors, Turks and Mongols. :lol:

Ugh.
Well, when you hear that word all over the media and being used in popular rap songs, you can't blame others for assuming it's just a cool slang word for "friend" or "mate".

Yes, I can, because I know full well that there is plenty of available information these days on what it really does mean.
Many people outside of USA don't know the origins of that word. I first heard of that word when I was like 13-14 years old? I think it was in that movie Men of Honor with DeNiro and Cuba Gooding Jr. Have you seen that film?

I've barely even heard of it.
And for the record, it is kind of odd for many american black people to adopt a term they found so offensive as a slang work that's part of their daily vocabulary.

I don't think it is when disproportionate oppression can be (and often is) internalized.
And it's also odd to me how ****a and ****er are considered two different things.

There's a lot of debate both within the black community and outside as to how acceptable either term is.
I think it's mostly a taboo in English speaking countries.

It's an English word, so yeah. :?
All languages have slurs, but none that seems to match n*****.

Most languages aren't spoken by people who abducted, oppressed, enslaved, abused, and brutally tortured people from a different continent for hundreds of years and continue to do many of these things to said people even today, so yeah.
And I always found it odd how that word is such a taboo that even quoting it will give you flack. In the media they call it "the n-word", for example.

I've seen a claim before that it's probably the most offensive word in the English language. (I think I included a link to my source for that on this forum once. Maybe I'll dig it up for you if you're interested).
I think in South Africa, the "forbidden word" is kaffir. No idea if the word n***** is used there or not. I mean there's lots of English speakers there so maybe?

Yep.
Anyway, you can't automatically expect a non-American to know the meaning of "the n word".

It's not an automatic expectation; it's an automatic reaction of surprise, and again, given the availability of information on things like this these days, I think it's actually a pretty well justified one.

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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-26, 3:00

I know Ipse said he doesn't want to argue about this anymore, but that doesn't mean I can't still respond to it anyway.
IpseDixit wrote:I think there are moments in which you need to give and overall judgment of a culture (in a given moment in history), you can't just say "oh this aspect was good and that aspect was bad".

I don't think so, and yes, you can.
I mean, Third Reich's culture was batshit crazy, it didn't simply have "bad and good aspects", such an approach would be diminishing and insulting.

Yes, it did, and no, it's not. Just because someone says some things about the Third Reich were good doesn't mean the Holocaust is any better for it.
Moreover, whilst I've said that that was my personal yardstick, I don't think there is total relativism among people when it comes to the scale of values and things that are more important in a culture.

I don't know what this means.

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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2017-10-04, 10:20

vijayjohn wrote:Are you kidding? Even my mom doesn't know the difference between "Spanish" and "Mexican." She says "Spanish" all the time when she means "Mexican." I try to correct her when she says that, but she ain't listenin'.

I guess it's similar to people in Europe calling anyone of East or South East Asian origin "Chinese". Or people assuming every Slavic person must be Russian.

vijayjohn wrote:Yes, I can, because I know full well that there is plenty of available information these days on what it really does mean.


Definitely, but you know how most people are. Notice how in a day and age where more people than ever are getting a higher education there still is a lot of ignorance in the world? And even among the supposedly well-educated.

vijayjohn"I've seen a claim before that it's probably the most offensive word in the English language. (I think I included a link to my source for that on this forum once. Maybe I'll dig it up for you if you're interested).[/quote]
It does seem to be the most offensive word in the English language overall, yes. I dunno what the most offensive word in my language is. As for the worst insult ever? Well to a man it's probably filho da puta. Nothing good awaits you if you call another man that. Btw, does English have an equivalent to that? Is motherfucker equivalent to it?

[quote="vijayjohn wrote:
It's not an automatic expectation; it's an automatic reaction of surprise, and again, given the availability of information on things like this these days, I think it's actually a pretty well justified one.

Tbh, I guess even the people who aren't ignorant about the meaning behind the word will use it nonetheless and they're reasoning will be "well I'm not American, therefore that "rule" does not apply to me. And if Americans and other native English speakers don't like it, then that's their problem."

That being said, generally speaking, it seems to me that the racial insults against black people are considered the most offensive ones in most European/White countries. Dunno how it is in countries that never took part in colonialism and have an extremely small Black population such as Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, etc.

As for the rest of your post: fair enough. I guess I can see where you're coming from.


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