my Japanese translation

kman1
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Re: Japanese translation

Postby kman1 » 2011-08-24, 11:50

Follow-up regarding Karavinka's corrections:

Is the さぁyou wrote above the sameさあlisted under the chart entitled “Interjections of Response” in the link below that means “well” ??
http://www.imabijapaneselearningcenter. ... son114.htm

Karavinka wrote:文法の勉強をしているのも少し飽きれて

a. Why did you insert もhere? I’m not sure what meaning it conveys here...? I know it means “also/too” but that doesn’t seem relevant here...
b. You used 飽きれて, I used うんざりになった. What is wrong with my version?

Karavinka wrote:今は、ですね

You used the above but is there anything wrong with my version -> せめて今,きっとこれを変えるだろうが ??

Karavinka wrote:多分本に戻るんですけど

a. 多分本に <- Does this means “Probably, I’m sure..” OR is that a set phrase? If it’s the latter, then what does the set phrase mean?
b. You used the verb戻るwhich means ‘to go back’. My original meaning was ‘to change’ in the sense of ‘changing to something random’ not specifically changing back to studying grammar though. With that said, do you still feel that戻るis the proper verb for what I originally wrote?

Karavinka wrote:自分の考えてる事や

Why did you use自分のinstead of 私の?

Karavinka wrote:毎日どんな事を考えているのか等でも書こう、としました

a. Why did you use どんな事instead of just 何 ?

b. 考えているのか等でも書こう、としました <- I don’t understand the grammar here at all.
b1. I thought one can write考えているか without の ...?
b2. 等でも <- What is that? I know that等 means ‘et cetera’ but what isでも doing there? Or maybe that was a typo and you meant to type 何でも, I’m not sure either way... ?
b3. I know that書こう+とするmeans ‘to intend to write’ but then that would mean what you wrote means “I intended to write...” and that doesn’t make sense in my sentence... ?

Karavinka wrote:毎日自分の考えていることなどを書いていましたので、ここに少し書いてみます。

a. The のでhere doesn’t make sense to me. のでmeans ‘because’ and my original sentence isn’t saying because I’ve been writing therefore I’m going to write a bit of it here.
b. Also, I don’t understand why you put などafter こと...?

Karavinka wrote:何日間続いて書いていたので少し長いかも知れません。

長いかも知れません<- Doesn’t this mean “it might be long” as opposed to meaning “it might seem long” ??

Karavinka wrote:もう二週間

What’s the difference between what I wrote この2週間and what you wrote aboveもう二週間 ? What is wrong with my version?

Karavinka wrote:自分の日本語勉強法について考えていました

Here, 法means ‘way’ as in ‘the way I’ve been studying Japanese’, correct ?

Karavinka wrote:文法だけに集中せずに

a. Could I have also written文法だけで?
b. せずに<- This just means しないで/しなくて correct ?? But isせずにused informally in everyday speech? I don’t know why but I thought it was a formal abbreviation of しないで/しなくて.

Karavinka wrote:文法だけに集中せずに、自分が話したい事を全て話せるようになるのが大事だとかんがえたんです。

a. This was just an alternate way of saying what I wrote in English. Nothing was wrong with my version, correct? (other than the minor points Neji already pointed out, right?)
b. かんがえたんです<- Why did you put 考えるin the past tense? I’m not sure why you wrote it in 平仮名either.

Karavinka wrote:もちろん、まだ知らない語彙などはいつもあるはずですが

Why is などhere? What does it mean?

Karavinka wrote:オンライン辞典があるんですから

I don’t understand how you end this sentence. You ended this part of the long sentence withからbut you ended the other half of this sentence with the conjunctive particleが. I don’t understand what you are doing regarding that...?? To me, your sentence reads like this:
“Of course there will be words that I don’t know but because there is an online dictionary.” <- That doesn’t make sense.

kman1
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Re: Japanese translation

Postby kman1 » 2011-08-24, 23:58

Follow-up to Neji's comments: (still waiting on feedback from Karavinka)

Nejimakidori wrote:I'm not sure of that but when you talk about something you are willing to commit yourself to in a very near future, I would use -ておく. It's just a personal point of view probably.

- Is -ておくa grammar pattern that I will just have to feel when I’m supposed to use after I hear it being used by native speakers often? Or is the reason I don’t understand it because I haven’t been taught it “correctly”?

Nejimakidori wrote:おもいきって means something like "with all one's strength/efforts" etc. It's just an alternative here.

- Is this a set phase that I should just memorize without breaking it down?

Nejimakidori wrote:a : I've never seen the expression you mention. :) We can do a bit of research about it later, I would be interested to know in which context you can use it.

- I made another typo. What I was supposed to say is:
a. What I was trying to do here is use “ある” + “..て”, would “あって” have been correct?
Ok, now how about the above? Better?

Nejimakidori wrote:b : the thing is this informal "have to" is the shortened version of -ないといけない, so I don't think it can be followed by the copula です. But once again, I might be wrong.

- Yes, I know it’s the shortened version of -ないといけない. But we have to find out what sentence ending(s) can follow that abbreviation... Hmm... (Let’s ask Karavinka :P lol )

Nejimakidori wrote:I suppose your version is correct. I just thought 決心 was a bit too strong (= "strong determination"). Maybe just 決定 ? I don't know, it all depends on the emphasis you want to use here.

- Yes, I see myself having problems with using words that are too formal. This is because I just use whatever word I see in the dictionary. And since they are not listed by how common they are, the very formal words are mixed in with the common everyday words. Guess you guys are going to have to let me know which words are appropriate for which occasion.

Nejimakidori wrote:If you insist on using kanji for everything, then why writing 蟻 in katakana ? アリ can also be written in kanji.

- That’s a good point! But one of the websites I use to study on mentioned that native speakers don’t use Kanji when writing animals/insects/etc., they use katakana only. But yes, I do try to use Kanji for everything at this point since I’m trying to learn as much Kanji as I can.

Nejimakidori wrote:But させる would refer to you in this sentence, no ? The meaning wouldn't be the same. I don't really understand why you rephrased it like that.

- Yeah, another typo. That させるis supposed to be される. Better? So, the sentence would then be -> 全部をよくされるかのように怒鳴らないでぞ

Nejimakidori wrote:I translated it more as "like you can handle anything".

- I’m not sure why you would the verb ‘to handle’ in this situation. Hmm, is that a French language thing? Seems odd in English to use the verb ‘to handle’ here.

Nejimakidori wrote:It's not the past tense here. It's a conditional. You make it by adding the -らending to the past/accomplished form of the verb.

- Then what would that conditional mean since it is not past tense?

Nejimakidori wrote:This expression is always like that : 友達と一緒に, 母と一緒に etc.

- But I wanted to say that the girl said let’s go to church tomorrow. With what you wrote above, it is unclear who said “let’s go to church tomorrow”. Correct?

Nejimakidori wrote:b : -味 would be used when talking about spices etc. Also for the perception of different tastes in the food you eat. I don't think it can be used to count cooked dishes.

- Can you list an real-life example or two using this counter?

Nejimakidori wrote:Other options :
作った料理
作った物

- Ah ok, so 作るmeans ‘to make food’ too then?

Nejimakidori wrote:See expressions like 国語辞典, 国語力

- Isn’t that last expression supposed to be 力国語 ?

Nejimakidori wrote:b : I've never heard of this verb + と欲しいだ form. I checked in my grammar books and didn't find any entry.

- See the link below for explanation of this grammar:
http://www.imabijapaneselearningcenter.com/lesson43.htm

In particular:
online language site wrote:If you want something to happen, use the -te form of a verb with hoshii. You may use hoshii with the past tense of a verb by inserting the particle to in between. Below are some examples.
雨が激しく降ったと欲しい。I wished that it would have poured.


So, with the above explained, is my version correct now?

Nejimakidori wrote:Nothing wrong with the first part, but maybe not very elegant (my own Japanese is also far from being elegant though !). But for the rest, there is a specific form in -てよかった that can be used here.

- a. It sounds like my version should be:
もう一度思うとそうしなくてよかったよ。
b. I also noticed that you wrote “But for the rest, there is a specific form in -てよかった that can be used here” So, the second part of my version isn’t wrong then? My reason for always inquiring about this is because I need to know if what I am saying will be understood by native speakers. I have to know where/how I am erring when I formulate sentences.

Nejimakidori wrote:And the pattern with ほしいshould be preceded by a -て form.

- This goes back to the link that I referred to you above. After reading the link above, is my version here correct now?

Nejimakidori wrote:I just hope the things I said can be useful to you.

- Of course, this is all helping me out immensely! My Japanese is getting better day by day, I can feel it. I like to think in whatever language I am studying and if I can formulate sentences for everything that I am thinking then I know I am progressing.

Śrāmaṇera

Re: Japanese translation

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-08-25, 4:21

kman1 wrote:- Is -ておくa grammar pattern that I will just have to feel when I’m supposed to use after I hear it being used by native speakers often?


I'm afraid it is.


- Is this a set phase that I should just memorize without breaking it down?

Yes, the version with the kanji is 思い切って.

would “あって” have been correct?

I don't know, I would probably just use ので here.

- That’s a good point! But one of the websites I use to study on mentioned that native speakers don’t use Kanji when writing animals/insects/etc., they use katakana only. But yes, I do try to use Kanji for everything at this point since I’m trying to learn as much Kanji as I can.


I'm also a bit influenced by Chinese. I see hanzi/kanji everyday everywhere I look when I'm walking outside so I'm growing a bit fond of them too. The only context I would recommend not to use them in Japanese is for the set grammatical constructions.


- Yeah, another typo. That させるis supposed to be される. Better? So, the sentence would then be -> 全部をよくされるかのように怒鳴らないでぞ


Why a passive form ? Why don't you just use the potential できる ?


- I’m not sure why you would the verb ‘to handle’ in this situation. Hmm, is that a French language thing? Seems odd in English to use the verb ‘to handle’ here.


It would be also odd in French, so it's not really a "French thing". I just thought it sounded ok in Japanese. I suppose this verb is used in a variety of contexts.

Next, for the different "conditionals" in Japanese, I suggest you memorize this very useful page by Tae Kim (Korean people seem to be the best at understanding Japanese grammar :) and at explaining it ) :

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/conditional.html


- But I wanted to say that the girl said let’s go to church tomorrow. With what you wrote above, it is unclear who said “let’s go to church tomorrow”. Correct?


Then use the Japanese punctuation ! :evil: I noticed you omit a lot of punctuation signs, which makes some sentences hard to follow at times.
If you are reporting words being said by someone, use 「 ... 」.

Nejimakidori wrote:b : -味 would be used when talking about spices etc. Also for the perception of different tastes in the food you eat. I don't think it can be used to count cooked dishes.

- Can you list an real-life example or two using this counter?


It's not really used in Japanese, apart from in a few set expressions (unlike Chinese, in Chinese, -味 is a very common classifier). In Japanese, it's mostly for expressions referring to Buddhism :

一味(pronounced かずみ) : one taste, one flavour /can also mean the Buddha's teaching/ can also be a Japanese name
五味 (ごみ :lol: ) : five flavours/five tastes/ the five periods in the Buddha's teachings
六味 (ろくみ) : The six tastes, or flavors — bitter, sour, sweet, acrid, salt, and insipid.
八味 (はちみ) : The eight savours (or pleasures) of the Buddha's nirvāṇa: 常住 perpetual abode, 寂滅extinction (of distress, etc.), 不老 eternal youth, 不死 immortality, 淸淨 purity, 虛通 absolute freedom (as space), 不動 imperturbility, and 快樂 joy.


- Ah ok, so 作るmeans ‘to make food’ too then?

It only means "to make".


- Isn’t that last expression supposed to be 力国語 ?


No. 例 : 国語力を高める勉強法について紹介します (first example found on Google.co.jp).
(= to increase your ability in Japanese/National language).
Japanese people refer to their own language with 国語. Foreign/other languages are 外国語 or 言語.

Nejimakidori wrote:b : I've never heard of this verb + と欲しいだ form. I checked in my grammar books and didn't find any entry.

- See the link below for explanation of this grammar:
http://www.imabijapaneselearningcenter.com/lesson43.htm


If I type あった欲しい on google.co.jp, I don't see any example of this pattern. I'm not sure if it's a very common way to say things. I usually like googling a few things so I can how frequently it is used by native speakers.


So, the second part of my version isn’t wrong then? My reason for always inquiring about this is because I need to know if what I am saying will be understood by native speakers.


But practically everything is perfectly understandable... I don't think this is what you should aim at though. Being understandable in Japanese is not that hard, honestly. The most difficult part with this language (and the one I'm losing hope to achieve one day) is to use sentences that would sound perfectly natural to a Japanese person. That's why I don't think for example もう一度思うと is a correct sentence with my logic (it is correct grammatically of course) but I don't think anyone would phrase it like that in this context. The problem is Japanese people systematicallt think the same thing of most foreigners who speak their language : something like "everything is correct grammatically but a Japanese person would never have said like that". And it's extremely frustrating, because there's no other way to learn how to speak like Japanese people apart from listening to them for hours everyday, read books etc.


頑張りましょう...

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Karavinka
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Re: Japanese translation

Postby Karavinka » 2011-08-25, 10:00

I'm not going to deal with all the questions. I re-wrote most of it based on my gut feeling. I checked the English and I re-wrote it in Japanese, based on what English is saying, but still I didn't make it all too literal because then it wouldn't be Japanese. Since this is largely a matter of pragmatics, I'm going to deal with a few that I can answer.

1. I changed iida to saa. Why? Your English had "OK." I assumed you probably didn't mean "OK" in a sense of "it is good" or "it is acceptable", but as an interjection, like "Okay, here it goes..." The context demanded that "iida" is simply out of place.

2. semete sounds too forced, like "semete jibun no shukudai gurai ha jibun de shinasai!" (Do your homework yourself, at least!) It is often used in context of "if not everything else, at least this."

3. English "I" can be either reflexive or "I" as opposed to "you." When you mean something like "my own thought", this is jibun no kangae. If you intended it to sound like "I don't know about you but this is what _I_ think", then you could say anta no kangaeteru koto ha wakaranaikedo, boku ha sou kangaeteiru.

4. moto ni modoru is, afaik, an expression by itself. There's even a nominal form: motomodori.

5. node in ~shitanode doesn't mean "because" (regardless of what your dictionary might say.) It's more like "since."

6. kono nishukan means "these two weeks" like on a calendar. "mou nishukan" something like "already these two past weeks."

7. ~sezuni is a fixed expression.

8. ~arundesukara. (shortened from arunodesukara) is an unfinished sentence of course, but Japanese are okay with it. The rest is just implied, it needs not be explicit.
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kman1
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Re: my Japanese translation

Postby kman1 » 2011-08-28, 21:13

Nejimakidori wrote:I don't know, I would probably just use ので here.

- Yeah, I’m not sure of the different conjugations of あるand how they are used commonly… I looked upあってvia Jim Breen’s jdict example search function on his site and it seems to be used, I guess. Your thoughts?

Nejimakidori wrote:I'm also a bit influenced by Chinese. I see hanzi/kanji everyday everywhere I look when I'm walking outside so I'm growing a bit fond of them too.

- I wonder what your level is in Chinese? You have been living there for a while, I think. By now, I’m sure you are quite fluent in it also…? Or are you primarily interested in Japanese and only do business in China?

Nejimakidori wrote:Why a passive form ? Why don't you just use the potential できる ?

- That’s what I’ve been trying to do this entire time. I need to get some glasses. That is supposed to be せられるorせる.

Nejimakidori wrote:Next, for the different "conditionals" in Japanese, I suggest you memorize this very useful page by Tae Kim (Korean people seem to be the best at understanding Japanese grammar and at explaining it ) :


- Thanks for the link! That cleared my confusion right up!

Nejimakidori wrote:Then use the Japanese punctuation ! I noticed you omit a lot of punctuation signs, which makes some sentences hard to follow at times.
If you are reporting words being said by someone, use 「 ... 」.

- Lol! I just assumed that Japanese people don’t really use punctuation and that the punctuation that I did see was only used in formal contexts. That is what I get for not asking and just assuming! :P

Nejimakidori wrote:In Japanese, it's mostly for expressions referring to Buddhism

- How are these used in regular sentences? I tried looking on google.co.jp and jim breen’s dictionary but nothing yet…

Nejimakidori wrote:If I type あったと欲しい on google.co.jp, I don't see any example of this pattern. I'm not sure if it's a very common way to say things. I usually like googling a few things so I can how frequently it is used by native speakers.

- I’ll ask around about this. But I have a feeling it’s not very common since you are not familiar with it.

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Re: my Japanese translation

Postby kman1 » 2011-08-28, 21:37

I think I understand everything in regards to my previous writing/corrections. Hopefully, I don't make the same mistakes. The next writings that I'm writing are to test my knowledge of certain Japanese grammar areas. Namely, indefinite pronouns. This is the chart that is in my Japanese book. So, my focus in NOT the English translation. Rather, I am trying to correctly use the Japanese grammar in a sentence. That's why a lot of these sentences are random. But they still make sense on their own.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/82 ... japan.png/

I'll post a little at a time:

彼女に払ってくれてと言ったのに誰かが弟と自分のお金を使わせたのははっきりと(きっと)知っ てるね。若いだという理由だけで誰もが彼女としたがる事何でもをしてもいいと思う。まあ、そのように俺の弟に誰もがさせてくれないね。俺とその事について 話したがる人誰でもがいるなら来て見てね。言うものがあるなら早く言ってぞ。何かを話したがる人があっても君と話せるほどの勇気を持つ人が誰でもいないだ ろうよ。魚や牛肉の中でどちら(いずれ)がもっと美味しい。どちらかがいい、私と。一部の夜時にどちらも食べない。でもその食べ物どちらも美味しいと思う。でも今は気にしない。どちらでも食べてもいい。
待ってよ。これを食べてもいいだと言ったがそれらのどちらでもを食べるとだめだ。
た いてい帽子を私と持ているが急激に無くしてしまった。家にどこかへあるのはきっと知ってるよ。どこも見て見付けれない。この都市へ店どこも開けていない。 ほら、君が私の母でないね。どこでも行きたい所に行けるよ。勉強する言語の中でどれが易しい。海軍に入るなら学校に行くとどんな言語を習いたいことが選られ なくてなってることが早く分かるよ。このように起こるだろう。部屋一室に入るし座ってどれかかれらの好きな必要の言語を選られる。そうしてあんたは何もせられないね。でも聞く言語の中でどれもみんなあまり好きではない言語は少ないよ。それらの言語を習いたがる人がどれもないの理由は誰もに難しいように見えることだよ。習うにはきっと長い時間がかかるよ。どれ好きな言語でも習わせればよかったんだよ。

I said pay for her and I’m sure someone still made my little sister use her own money! Just because she is young, everyone thinks they can do whatever they want with her. Well, I won’t anyone do that to my little sister! If anyone wants to talk to me about that then come on! If you have something to say then say it! Even if there is someone who wants to say something, no-one would have the courage to say it to you. Which is more delicious, fish or meat? Both (either) of them are fine to me. *On some nights, I don’t eat either of them. (How do I saw “some” in Japanese in the middle/beginning of a sentence?) But I think some of that food taste good. But I don’t care right now. I’ll eat whatever.

Wait! I said you can eat this but you cannot eat any of those. Usually I have my hat with me but suddenly I lost it. I know it’s at home somewhere. I looked everywhere and I can’t find it. Which languages are easy out of the ones you are studying? If you join the Navy and go to their school, you will quickly see that you are not allowed to choose which language you learn. This is what will probably happen. You will go into a room, sit down, and a language that they like and need will be chosen. And you can’t do anything about it. But out of the languages that you will hear, there are only a few that no-one really likes. The reason why there isn’t anyone who wants to learn those languages is because to everyone, they seem difficult to learn. Learning it probably is going to take a long time. It would be nice if they let you learn whatever language you like.

Śrāmaṇera

Re: my Japanese translation

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-08-29, 6:18

You know there's actually an excellent website (I used it a lot too, and quite often) where you can write down anything you want in any language you want, and native speakers will provide corrections. It's called "Lang 8" and here is the link :

http://lang-8.com/register/step1

It really is a precious help.

Śrāmaṇera

Re: my Japanese translation

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-08-29, 17:00

I started a bit but then I stopped because I realize it doesn't make much sense to do that. Because every person has a different sensitivity when it comes to expressing things. There is not one correct solution for every sentence you are submitting to us here. The only thing I'm doing now is rewriting practically everything in a different style : mine... :?

The only real "mistakes" I spotted are :

- you wrote "little brother" (弟) instead of "little sister" (妹) ;

- くれる and あげる

kman1 wrote:彼女に払ってあげてと言ったのに誰かが妹に自分のお金を使わせたのははっきりと(きっと)知ってるね。若いからといって、彼女に何でもさせてもらってもいい、とみんなが思ってしまう。まあ、俺の妹にそんなことをやらせるのを止めるべきだぞ何か問題があったら俺に喧嘩を売ってみてね言いたいことがあればちゃんと言え ! たとえ言いたいことがあっても、誰も何も勇気を出して言ってくれないよ

Śrāmaṇera

Re: my Japanese translation

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-09-04, 9:56

- Yeah, I’m not sure of the different conjugations of あるand how they are used commonly… I looked upあってvia Jim Breen’s jdict example search function on his site and it seems to be used, I guess. Your thoughts?


Yes, I suppose it can be used too.


- I wonder what your level is in Chinese? You have been living there for a while, I think. By now, I’m sure you are quite fluent in it also…? Or are you primarily interested in Japanese and only do business in China?


I'm just a beginner in Chinese. I manage to find the things I need in shops, can have basic conversation with taxi drivers if they speak slowly. I've been living in China for two years but, even though I like the language too, I'm much more interested in Japanese. I study Chinese because it is linked to the history of the Japanese language and I feel it helps me to expand my knowledge of Japanese. I don't do any business in China, I teach French in a university in Wuhan.


- How are these used in regular sentences? I tried looking on google.co.jp and jim breen’s dictionary but nothing yet…


I can't remember where I found them but it was on a very good website about classifiers in Japanese. I did the search when you asked about it so I could confirm the information, but I didn't know about it before, to be honest. I don't think they're frequently used.


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