my Japanese translation

kman1
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Re: Japanese translation

Postby kman1 » 2011-05-11, 14:57

Nejimakidori wrote:You seem to be in need of scientific explanations for everything but I think many aspects of the Japanese language need to be “felt”, “experienced”, rather than “explained”.

Well, it’s not that. Rather, my background is Korean and both of their grammars are pretty similar so it’s easy for me to misunderstand grammar points in Japanese.

Nejimakidori wrote:But here is an extract from an online dictionary, if you’re interested :

Far too advanced for me at this point but perhaps after 2-3 months I can revisit this post and analyze it better.

Nejimakidori wrote:No, you can’t because考えさせてあげたら is used if I want to give you (the opportunity to) make me think.

We’ll return to this later. I need to study the differences between the three ‘give’ verbs AND the causative/causative passive/passive forms more in-depth. I took notes on them but haven’t had a chance to really go over them deeply. I think I’ll make a separate thread for it later this week.

Nejimakidori wrote:Anyway, you’ll notice most Japanese people tend not to assert things and the use of this kind of expressions is really common. There is always some kind of humility involved when speaking Japanese to someone you are not very close to.

This is what I thought you were referring to. Because in some of the sentences you use that expression in, the meaning of “to think” isn’t there. So, basically it makes the sentence softer. Ok.

Nejimakidori wrote:I didn’t. I just didn’t translate it literally. Now that you’ve learnt the expression withもと, I’m sure you can figure out the meaning.

Yes, I know the meaning of 固定した文法のもとで but now I don’t understand what普通の形 means... ?

固定した文法のもとで = based on the fixed (original) grammar
名詞化だ(と思います) = it is a nominalization
I’m not sure where普通の形からの is here... By your translation, it seems like it should be 固定した文法のもとで の名詞化だ(と思います).

kman1 wrote:Doesn’t this translate as “Don’t you think English isn’t strange sometimes?” right?

Nejimakidori wrote:Right.

So, that means your English translation is incorrect then? You translated that sentence as “Don’t you think English is strange sometimes?” This is confusing... lol.

Nejimakidori wrote:They can mean “on my side”, the same way you would refer to somebody’s side (mostly if you’re addressing a company or are speaking very politely to somebody) as そちら.

So, if I was speaking to someone and I wanted to say “you” the pronoun, then I could use そちら instead of あなた, right?

Nejimakidori wrote:いる isn’tだ. (いる is not a copula anyway). Here I used only だ, it has nothing to do with いる. Here you just need だ because a noun cannot be placed alone before the pattern -と思います.

Yes, that was a typo. だ is である.

Nejimakidori wrote:I can’t substitute とwith や here because it’s not what I mean. I use the two terms in an exhaustive way : “the things I know and the things I say”.

I think this is maybe what you are referring to regarding how とand や are used:
http://www.wa-pedia.com/language/japane ... .28made.29

Nejimakidori wrote:And to refer to the things you actually know, the verb知る is usually conjugated in the -ている form.

Huh? So, 知る without ている is used “for the things one doesn’t know”? Example(s), please?

hashi wrote:I wrote a nice massive reply explaining all that too,

Please, feel free to post it! More explanations from different learning points of view always helps. I promise to read through all of it and asks questions as well. :)

Nejimakidori wrote:した事ないの?
(talking about masturbation)

Is that the entire sentence or only a part of it? If the former, then how does that sentence translate? Perhaps, “You didn't masturbate, did you?”

Nejimakidori wrote:どうゆうことをするんですか?

No idea what this means... Maybe a familiar way of saying ‘どんなことをするんですか?’ so it would be “what are you doing?” But I’m not sure..

Śrāmaṇera

Re: Japanese translation

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-05-11, 16:09

kman1 wrote:I’m not sure where普通の形からの is here...


Literally : "from the normal form/pattern"
The full sentence would be something like : "Based on the fixed grammar, it is a nominalization that originated from the normal form".

kman1 wrote:So, that means your English translation is incorrect then? You translated that sentence as “Don’t you think English is strange sometimes?” This is confusing... lol.


To me they mean the same, there is only a nuance. I'm not a native speaker of English of course but to me :
"Don't you think it's strange ?"
"Don't you think it isn't strange?"

... end up being the same. No ?

kman1 wrote:So, if I was speaking to someone and I wanted to say “you” the pronoun, then I could use そちら instead of あなた, right?


"anata" is honestly rarely used in daily conversation. Most of the time, you don't need to emphasize who the speaker is in Japanese and you just deduct from the context if you are talking of yourself or somebody else. Using "anata" as often as we use "you" in English can even be rude in Japanese : the person might wonder why you insist on repeating this word.
"Sochira" is just a polite way of referring to somebody who is higher than you in the hierarchy or talking about your interlocutor's company/side affairs etc.
But neither "anata" nor "sochira" are real personal pronouns like in our languages. Same goes for "watashi", "watakushi", "boku", "ore" and the rest of the crew...


kman1 wrote:Huh? So, 知る without ている is used “for the things one doesn’t know”? Example(s), please?

The things you don't know are indeed, expressed without the -ているform : 知らない.

I asked once a Japanese friend to explain to me why you have to use the -ている for the affirmative sentence only, and he had absolutely no idea... I think it's because the dictionary form of Japanese verbs (知る) can also refer to something that hasn't happened yet. But if you use the suspensive -ている form, it becomes something actual.

kman1 wrote:した事ないの?
Is that the entire sentence or only a part of it? If the former, then how does that sentence translate? Perhaps, “You didn't masturbate, did you?”


Literally it only means : "haven't you done (that)?" or "have you (n)ever done (that)?" (it's the pattern -たことがある). I was only giving the context here.

kman1 wrote:どうゆうことをするんですか?
No idea what this means... Maybe a familiar way of saying ‘どんなことをするんですか?’ so it would be “what are you doing?” But I’m not sure..


どんな = "what kind of"
どうゆう (= どういう/どう言う) = an equivalent of 何 ("what").

For example : この単語はどういう意味ですか?
(What is the meaning of this word?)

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Re: Japanese translation

Postby kman1 » 2011-05-12, 2:19

Nejimakidori wrote:To me they mean the same, there is only a nuance. I'm not a native speaker of English of course but to me :
"Don't you think it's strange ?"
"Don't you think it isn't strange?"

... end up being the same. No ?

I am a native speaker but I am not a grammarian so I am going out on a limb here but I am going to say that they are NOT the same. I would respond to both questions differently if I answered "yes" or "no". Once again, I do hope a more educated English speaker can clarify things here.

But the main thing is what does the Japanese you wrote mean...?

Nejimakidori wrote:The things you don't know are indeed, expressed without the -ているform : 知らない.

Hmm, I wonder when 知る / 知りますis used, then...?

Nejimakidori wrote:どうゆう (= どういう/どう言う) = an equivalent of 何 ("what").

How/why does いchange to ゆ here? Does this change only occur in the phrase or is there a rule I need to know about?

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Re: Japanese translation

Postby hashi » 2011-05-12, 2:43

kman1 wrote:
Nejimakidori wrote:To me they mean the same, there is only a nuance. I'm not a native speaker of English of course but to me :
"Don't you think it's strange ?"
"Don't you think it isn't strange?"

... end up being the same. No ?

I am a native speaker but I am not a grammarian so I am going out on a limb here but I am going to say that they are NOT the same. I would respond to both questions differently if I answered "yes" or "no". Once again, I do hope a more educated English speaker can clarify things here.


What was the question?

But the main thing is what does the Japanese you wrote mean...?

Nejimakidori wrote:The things you don't know are indeed, expressed without the -ているform : 知らない.

Hmm, I wonder when 知る / 知りますis used, then...?


Rules for verbs like 知ります: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_verb_conjugations_and_adjective_declensions#i_form

Nejimakidori wrote:どうゆう (= どういう/どう言う) = an equivalent of 何 ("what").

How/why does いchange to ゆ here? Does this change only occur in the phrase or is there a rule I need to know about?


Colloquialism.

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Re: Japanese translation

Postby kman1 » 2011-05-13, 13:55

hashi wrote:What was the question?

Well, Nejimakidori edited his post so I think he figured it out. :) But I do still wonder if the Japanese he wrote is correct though since he edited his English translation. I’ll repost it below:
英語は時々おかしくないと思いませんか?

So, is that Japanese correct or did you make an error in the Japanese writings also?


No, that’s not my question. My question is when is 知る / 知りますused in regular sentences. I’m referring to contexts. When to use the plain form 知る and when to use the polite form 知ります
as opposed to using 知っている when someone is expressing they know something or whatever.

Śrāmaṇera

Re: Japanese translation

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-05-13, 14:11

I didn't edit any post and didn't edit anything to the Japanese sentence. I don't understand why you make stories like that. I am not sure whether this sentence is right or wrong but one thing I'm sure of is that I never edited anything. What you just said is weird.

"Shiru" = the act of learning, the learning process.

"Shitteiru" = the fact that you have learned something

You might hear "shiru" from time to time but I think it's quite rare. In this context, anyway.

And for what it's worth... おかしくないと思わない?... I just asked a native speaker who told me that to her it means indeed the same as おかしいと思わない?, the difference being too little to be noticed in casual speech.

But my sentence is not frequently used and it sounds, yes, a bit unnatural. I usually try not to think too much and that's why I didn't focus on this difference that was insignificant to me.
What I didn't understand was your obsession about this sentence, as if you were trying to prove something that just wasn't there.

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Re: Japanese translation

Postby kman1 » 2011-05-13, 15:13

1.
Yes, I re-read your post incorrectly when I was replying to hashi's post but anyway, obviously you didn't read my post above either. I said you edited your English sentence NOT your Japanese sentence(s). ;) We were in two totally different frames of mind. You were focusing on the Japanese sentence and I was focusing on the English sentence. But either way, I see that you didn't edit anything and I misread an earlier post. My mistake.

Anyway, what I meant to say is when you said the following below:
Nejimakidori wrote:To me they mean the same, there is only a nuance. I'm not a native speaker of English of course but to me :
"Don't you think it's strange ?"
"Don't you think it isn't strange?"

... end up being the same. No ?

That is incorrect. I was unsure at first but now I am positive. You clearly said that they are the same to you and I just wanted to make sure that you are aware of the fact that the second sentence you wrote is NOT the same as the first one. That's all. Remember, you're the Japanese expert assisting me, not the other way around. lol! I was just wondering that since you made a mistake in the English translation then you might have made a mistake in the Japanese translation as well. If you didn't then great! I just want to make sure since I am the student here. :)

2.
Regarding ‘shiru’ and ‘shitteiru’, can you list examples please that show their differences explicitly? I’m not really sure when one or the other is used, and I think only examples can allow me to feel when to use which one.

Śrāmaṇera

Re: Japanese translation

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-05-13, 16:22

kman1 wrote:

That is incorrect. I was unsure at first but now I am positive. You clearly said that they are the same to you and I just wanted to make sure that you are aware of the fact that the second sentence you wrote is NOT the same as the first one.


And I'm sure you are right about that. I just never paid attention to this kind of things and in French, I would use them indifferently ("Tu crois pas que c'est pas un peu bizarre"?/"Tu crois pas que c'est un peu bizarre?"). The Japanese girl I asked about the two Japanese sentences told me I was focusing on details that are not important to her. She thinks Japanese people don't pay attention to the grammatical patterns the way we study them abroad and that even the idea of "grammar" is foreign to her. I believe that too. But that's why I find Japanese so hard : grammar books just look like long catalogues with a huge list of expressions, all of them being used only in very specific contexts. It's like there is one expression for every different situation...

kman1 wrote: you're the Japanese expert


I wish. :? I'm just the average student.

kman1 wrote:
Regarding ‘shiru’ and ‘shitteiru’, can you list examples please that show their differences explicitly? I’m not really sure when one or the other is used, and I think only examples can allow me to feel when to use which one.


I've honestly never seen "shiru" used without the "-te" form... unless it's used as part of some expressions like "shiru tame ni" etc. But to say that you know something, you systematically use "shitteiru". I'm pretty sure of that.

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Re: Japanese translation

Postby hashi » 2011-05-13, 20:58

Nejimakidori wrote:
kman1 wrote:
Regarding ‘shiru’ and ‘shitteiru’, can you list examples please that show their differences explicitly? I’m not really sure when one or the other is used, and I think only examples can allow me to feel when to use which one.


I've honestly never seen "shiru" used without the "-te" form... unless it's used as part of some expressions like "shiru tame ni" etc. But to say that you know something, you systematically use "shitteiru". I'm pretty sure of that.


What about causative 知らせる?

Śrāmaṇera

Re: Japanese translation

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-05-14, 1:08

Ah, yes, "shiraseru" is frequently used (humble form here) :

ごみの分別と出し方をお知らせします


(Official of 柏崎 municipality, in 新潟 prefecture, giving information about the way garbage should be recycled or thrown away : http://www.city.kashiwazaki.niigata.jp/ ... 94109.html)

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Re: Japanese translation

Postby kman1 » 2011-05-24, 14:12

Nejimakidori wrote:She thinks Japanese people don't pay attention to the grammatical patterns the way we study them abroad and that even the idea of "grammar" is foreign to her. I believe that too. But that's why I find Japanese so hard : grammar books just look like long catalogues with a huge list of expressions, all of them being used only in very specific contexts. It's like there is one expression for every different situation...

You know, I was thinking about what you posted here, Neji. If you don’t feel Japanese has grammar then take a look at this Japanese grammar site:
http://www.imabijapaneselearningcenter.com/

It definitely seems like it has grammar to me. The author of that site lists plenty of grammatical terms in Japanese when explaining grammar points. I’m not sure how important that is to know as a student but it’s there.

Śrāmaṇera

Re: Japanese translation

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-05-24, 15:43

It's not exactly what I said. Don't take everything literally :)
Every language has a grammar...

But some languages have heavy declension patterns, prepositions, horrible conjugations that create an internal logic, like a big structure with the same patterns being repeated. I just feel as if Japanese doesn't have this logic, but instead it has an extremely long list of different situations, rather than "patterns". I feel that in Japanese : one expression = one context, while let's say in French : one expression = lots of different contexts.

And I have three big Japanese grammar books and I am supposed to take JLPTN1next month, I've been literally EATING grammar every day for two months now...

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Re: Japanese translation

Postby kman1 » 2011-05-24, 21:45

Nejimakidori wrote:And I have three big Japanese grammar books and I am supposed to take JLPTN1next month, I've been literally EATING grammar every day for two months now...

Oh really? Whoa! I assume you're using the best three Japanese grammar books available? Would you please list them? I would like to maybe check them out as well. Also, good luck on your test next month, I am sure you will do just fine! :)

Śrāmaṇera

Re: Japanese translation

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-05-25, 1:17

I used a famous grammar in French : Grammaire japonaise systematique, by Shimamori Reiko.

Then because it's very handy to check common grammar points (and the best online grammar guide, but you can also download the PDF) : http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar
It's available in many different languages.


But mostly these days, I use as a reference a grammar book published in China (Dalian University, 大连出版社) : 日本語類義語表現 - 使い分け by 泉原省二.
(it's entirely in Japanese)

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Re: Japanese translation

Postby kman1 » 2011-08-17, 15:13

いいだ。文法を勉強する事にうんざりしになった、ついに。(せめて今,きっとこれを変えるだろうが)僕の思いと毎日何を思ってるかについて書いてるべきだろう。この二週間(あいだ)思ってた事を書いた。一部の書いた例を書くよ。正しいか間違うか教えて下さいね。二三日疲れて書いてので少し長い見えるだろう。
Ok. Finally, I am sick of studying grammar. (at least for now, I'm sure I'll change this later though...) I probably should be writing about my thoughts or what I am thinking about everyday. For the last couple of days, I've been writing down what I have been thinking about. I'll write some of the examples that I made. Please let me know if (what I wrote) is correct or not. I've been continuously writing what I've been thinking for the last couple of days so it might seem kinda long...

私は思っていた、この2週間(‘2’は‘に’と読めてる、’二つ’と読めて見てもいい)日本語を勉強する方法について。文法にだけ集中し過ぎる代りにただ言いたい全て言葉を話すのは一番大切なことですと思います。もちろん知らない言葉があるが覚えなければならない事はオンライン辞典があるて使えないとです。

この日記記入を明日は終わらなくちゃならない。今は疲れた。根に行きます。明日までまたね。
I’ve been thinking about the way that I’ve been studying Japanese for past couple of weeks. Instead of only focusing on grammar too much, I think just saying everything that I want to say is the most important thing (to focus on). Of course, there will words that I don’t know but what I have to keep in mind is that there are online dictionaries and I must use them. I’ll have to finish this journal entry tomorrow (because) I’m tired right now and I’m going to sleep. See you later until tomorrow.

日本語でto wake upその動詞が何でしょうか。本当もっといい感じします、日本語でだけ話する決心したから。
Mikeや、戸を閉めてね。アリが入っているの事を見えないか。目を開けてね。戸は大きく開いていたね。何も入られる、そうするなら。
What is the word for "to wake up" in Japanese? I feel much better now, since I made the decision to speak Japanese only. Mike, close the door. You don't see the ants going in? Open your eyes! The door is wide open. Anything can go in if you do that.

- なあ! 静かにしろ! 何をしてるか分からないね。全部をよくする事知ってるように怒鳴ってないでよ。
今日Mormonsは家に来た。彼ら家に来るたびに本当にfrustrating(欲求不満を感じて)で苛々するよ。出すまで何もが出来ない。
Ahh! Be quiet! I don't know what you're doing. Don't yell at me like you know how to do everything so well! Today, the Mormons came to my house. Every time they come to my house it is really frustrating and annoying. I can't do anything until they leave.

今朝覚めた時は横たわっていて今日何をするか思っていた。今日仕事で会ったきれいな三人の女の人を見に行ける。そうしないならいつも土曜日でする事ができる。でもそうするのはうんざりしますよ。違う事をしたい。
This morning when I woke up I was lying down and I was thinking about what I am going to do today. Today, I can go see the three beautiful girls I saw at work I met at work. If not, then I can do what I always do on Sundays. But I'm tired of doing that. I want to do something different.

仕事をしてた時会った新しい友達はいっしょうに明日教会に行こうと言った。すこし思って後で行く決定をした。思ったより楽しかったね。たくさんの食べ物を食べさせて映画も見させた。でも食べた食べ物の多くはそんなに美味しくなかった。全部料理した物中で多分三つ(三味 <- ?)が好きだった。不味い物を食べた理由は違う美味しい食べ物がなかったからだ。教会しに行った時牧師は説教するばかりなくで合唱団も歌って座ってる人々も礼拝してたね。
The girl that I met when I was working told me 'let's go to church tomorrow'. After I thought about it for a bit, I decided to go. It was more fun than I thought. They made me eat a ton of food and they also made me watch some movies. But most of the food I ate wasn't that delicious. Out of everything that they cooked, I probably liked three dishes. The reason I ate the nasty food is because there wasn't any other delicious food to eat. When we went to church, not only was the pastor preaching but choir was singing and the people sitting down was praising God too.

彼はあたしに美味しい食べ物を食べたがると言った。私は言った事が分からないか。食べ物が欲しがるってよ。私は君が座って欲しい。台所にいるあいだ私の母は君を見て欲しい。そこでいるあいだに思ってたのはほかのいろいろ国語を勉強したと欲しいだたが。もう一度思ってそうしなかったのはよかったよ。きょうはお天気であった欲しい。
He said he wants me to eat some delicious foods. I said you don't know. He said he wants some food. I want you to sit down. My mother wants me to watch you while you are in the kitchen. I wish that I had studied some more different languages when I was there. Thinking about it again, I'm glad that I didn't do that. I wish we had nice weather today.
Last edited by kman1 on 2011-08-28, 21:39, edited 1 time in total.

Śrāmaṇera

Re: Japanese translation

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-08-22, 15:48

Sorry for the late reply. By the way, you asked me about the question mark in Japanese : normally it's not part of Japanese punctuation but people have come to use it as often as we do in our languages.

I don't have time right now to go through all the details, I just changed what I would have said according to the context and corrected a few minor particle mistakes.

I will also ask more proficient members to have a look.


いいだ。文法を勉強する事(こと)にうんざりになった、ついに。(せめて今,きっとこれを変えるだろうが)僕の思いと毎日何を思ってるかについて書いておくべきだろう。この二週間(あいだ)思ってた事を書いた。一部の書いた例を(ここに)書くよ(書いておこう?)。正しいか間違うか教えて下さいね。二三日疲れて(おもいきって?)書いてので少し長見えるだろう。


私が考えていたのは、この2週間(‘2’は‘に’と読めてる、’二つ’と読めて見てもいい)日本語を勉強する方法について。文法にだけ集中し過(す)ぎる代りにただ言いたい全て言葉を話すのは一番大切なことと思います。もちろん知らない言葉があるが覚えなければならない事はオンライン辞典があるので使えないといけない

この日記記入を明日は終わらなくちゃならない。今は疲れた。寝に行きます。明日までまたね。


日本語でto wake upその動詞が何でしょうか。今、日本語[b]だけで話すのを決めたから、[/b]本当もっとよく感じる(わけだ)
Mikeや、戸を閉めてね。アリが入っていることが見えないか。目を開けてね。戸は大きく開いていね。何も入られる、そうするなら。


- なあ! 静かにしろ! 何をしてるか分からないね。何でも扱えるみたいに怒鳴らないでよ。
今日、モルモン教の人家に来た。彼ら家に来るたびに本当にfrustrating(欲求不満を感じて)で苛々するよ。出るまで何も出来ない。


今朝、目が覚めた時は横たわっていながら今日何をするか考えていた。今日、仕事で会ったきれいな三人の女の人を見に(会いに)行ける。そうしなかったらいつも土曜日する事(こと)ができる。でもそうするのはうんざりしていますよ。違う事をしたい。


仕事をしてた時会った新しい友達いっしょに明日教会に行こうと言った。すこし考えてから行くことにした。思ったより楽しかったね。たくさんの食べ物を食べさせて、映画も見させた。でも食べた食べ物の多くはそんなに美味しくなかった。全部した料理のなかで多分三つ(三味 <- ?) (三皿 = みさら)が好きだった。不味い物を食べた理由は他に美味しい食べ物がなかったからだ。教会に行った時、牧師説教するばかりなく、合唱団も歌って、座ってる人々も礼拝してたね。


彼はあたし(?)に美味しい食べ物を食べたがると言った。私が/の言った事が分からないか。食べ物が欲しがるってよ。私は君が座って欲しい。台所にいるあいだ、私の母は君を見て欲しい。そこいるあいだに思ってたのはほかのいろいろ言語を勉強すればよかった省みる(=かえりみる)と、そうしなくてよかったよ。きょうはお天気がよければよかった

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Karavinka
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Re: Japanese translation

Postby Karavinka » 2011-08-22, 18:26

@kman1:

This is my rendition of the first two paragraphs. Your writing is intelligible, and mostly quite correct, but not elegant. I re-phrased much of it based on my (inferior version of) Japanese language sensibility. I'm not a Japanese myself and I'm a terrible writer as well, so there might still be places where I don't sound idiomatic, so just take it as another way of saying basically the same thing. Like you were, it's past 3am for me now after work and I haven't written (or even read) Japanese for a while.

What sounds the most awkward in your original was the lack of consistency in your speech level. In one sentence you used teineigo ~desune and the next you would say ~darou, just to give an example. (changing ~darou to ~deshou would have made it sound more natural, or at least, consistent).


さぁ。文法の勉強をしているのも少し飽きれて、(今は、ですね、多分本に戻るんですけど)自分の考えてる事や、毎日どんな事を考えているのか等でも書こう、としました。最近、毎日自分の考えていることなどを書いていましたので、ここに少し書いてみます。間違っている所があれば教えてくださいね。何日間続いて書いていたので少し長いかも知れません。

もう二週間自分の日本語勉強法について考えていました。文法だけに集中せずに、自分が話したい事を全て話せるようになるのが大事だとかんがえたんです。もちろん、まだ知らない語彙などはいつもあるはずですが、オンライン辞典があるんですから。あれを使わなきゃ。今日はここまでにして、後は明日にします。今疲れているし、寝ます。また明日。
Last edited by Karavinka on 2011-08-23, 5:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Śrāmaṇera

Re: Japanese translation

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-08-22, 20:47

Thanks a lot Karavinka. Your version looks and sounds indeed more elegant :) I wish I could write like this !

kman1
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Re: Japanese translation

Postby kman1 » 2011-08-23, 15:01

My follow-up questions for Neji's corrections about my translations:

1. 書いてるべきだろう -> 聞いておくべきだろう/聞いとくべきだろう(ておく->とく)
I’m not sure why you put “おく” there specifically. I know what it means:
http://www.timwerx.net/language/jpverbs/lesson67.htm

but I’m still not sure why you especially put it there. It seems like it means the same thing even without it...

2. 例を(ここに)書くよ(書いておこう?)
a. I didn’t write “ここに” because I assumed the meaning would be implied. Your thoughts on my rationale?
b. I assume the “おこう” here is the same as the “おく” you inserted above...?

3. 疲れて(おもいきって?)
I’m not sure what this “おもいきって” means or is supposed to mean...

4. 私はが思っていた ->私が考えていたのは
The difference between “思う” and “考える” ?

5. 文法にだけ集中し過(す)ぎる
Why did you insert “(す)” ?

6. 一番大切なことだと思います
I think with this, I am always supposed to everything in the most plain form (shortest form) and then put the politeness or informal/intimate marker at the end. Correct?

7. オンライン辞典があるて使えないとです。
a. What I was trying to do here is use “ある” + “..て”, would “ありて” have been correct?
b. With “ないとです”, I was trying to use the informal ‘have to’ “ないと” + a polite sentence ending. Since ““ないとです” is incorrect then what would be correct?

8. 日本語でだけ話する決心したから
For “話する決心したから”, this was supposed to be “話すのを決心したから”. I just made a typo there. Would the version I just changed be correct?

9. 本当にもっとよく
So, 本当 always has to have に after it?

10. 本当にもっとよく感じる(わけだ)
I’m not sure what the optional わけだ would do to the sentence to make it better/more accurate...

11. アリが入っていることが見えないか。
Why did you use the hiragana instead of the kanji for事?

12. 全部をよくする事知ってるように怒鳴ってないでよ
With the above, what I meant to type was “全部をよくさせるかのように怒鳴らないでぞ。Would that be correct?

13. 何でも扱えるみたいに
I don’t know what扱える means here...?
( I think みたいに means “like” similar to “ように” and何でも means “everything”. )

14. モルモン教の人
So, if I add the name of a religion such as Mormon (モルモン) +教の人 then that means “a person of that religion” (i.e. a Mormon) ??

15. 横たわっていて今日何をするか思っていた
a. 横たわっていて <- So, here I have to useながら always? I knew aboutながらbut I just chose to use て by itself anyway to be more general, I suppose.
b. 思っていた <- Here we go again with the differences between 思うand 考える...

16. 見に(会いに)行ける
Since you会いに in parenthesis, I can assume that it is optional, right?

17. そうしなかったらいつも土曜日はする事(こと)ができる。
a. Why is そうしなかったら better than そうしないなら? Isn’t そうしなかったらpast tense? What I wrote is present negative tense...

18. いつも土曜日でする事ができる
So, I can’t use でto mean “at” in reference to days, weeks, months, years? I have to use は, right?

19. でもそうするのはうんざりしますよ
a. I’m not sure why you put のは in bold text... That’s the same thing I wrote. lol
b. Why must I use していますinstead of just しますhere?

20. 仕事をしてた時に会った
にis mandatory here? I thought it was pretty much always or mostly optional...?

21. 新しい友達といっしょうに明日
I’m not sure why you put とafter友達...?

22. すこし考えてから行くことにした
a. Again, the difference between “思う” and “考える” ?
b. Why did you use the grammar てからas opposed to ...て後で ?
c. ことにする <- I know this is an alternate way of expressing “to decide to do smth.” but what was wrong with my version?

23. 全部した料理のなかで多分三つ(三味 <- ?) (三皿 = みさら)が好きだった
a. Instead of三つ, I could also use三皿, right?
b. Then, what is the food condiments counter 味used for? Example(s)?
c. Why is全部した料理のなかでbetter than全部料理した物の中で ?

24. 違う美味しい食べ物がなかったからだ
a. Why is他にused instead of違う?
b. Why is他にused instead of他の?

25. 彼はあたし(?)に美味しい食べ物を食べたがると言った。
Oops, I forgot that あたしis feminine first person.

26. いろいろな国語を勉強したと欲しいだたが
いろいろな言語を勉強すればよかった
a. Difference between国語 and言語?
b. 勉強すればよかった <- When you typed that grammar pattern, I remembered that it was a common grammar to indicate “to wish smth. happened”. But I also think I saw “verb + と欲しいだ” representing “to wish smth. happened” also. How is this grammar used then since I didn’t use it correctly?

27. もう一度思ってそうしなかったのはよかったよ。
省みると、そうしなくてよかったよ
I understand your version and like it but what specifically is wrong with my version?

28. きょうはお天気であった欲しい
きょうはお天気がよければよかった。
Again, I understand your version and like it but what specifically is wrong with my version?


Karavinka, I'm going to go over your version after I get some sleep. I hope you can provide your input of how the other sections you haven't corrected yet should be.

Śrāmaṇera

Re: Japanese translation

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-08-23, 17:15

1. 書いてるべきだろう -> 聞いておくべきだろう/聞いとくべきだろう(ておく->とく)
I’m not sure why you put “おく” there specifically. I know what it means:
http://www.timwerx.net/language/jpverbs/lesson67.htm

but I’m still not sure why you especially put it there. It seems like it means the same thing even without it...


I'm not sure of that but when you talk about something you are willing to commit yourself to in a very near future, I would use -ておく. It's just a personal point of view probably.

2. 例を(ここに)書くよ(書いておこう?)
a. I didn’t write “ここに” because I assumed the meaning would be implied. Your thoughts on my rationale?
b. I assume the “おこう” here is the same as the “おく” you inserted above...?


Yes, it's the same.
As for ここに, I have the feeling it can be a bit unclear without it. I'm always a bit confused when it comes to decide whether something is or is not obvious in Japanese sometimes...

3. 疲れて(おもいきって?)
I’m not sure what this “おもいきって” means or is supposed to mean...


おもいきって means something like "with all one's strength/efforts" etc. It's just an alternative here.

4. 私はが思っていた ->私が考えていたのは
The difference between “思う” and “考える” ?


This is tricky indeed. Roughly, 思う is usually used when talking about what you think about something/your opinion etc. 考える refers to the action of thinking itself.

5. 文法にだけ集中し過(す)ぎる
Why did you insert “(す)” ?


Just because I prefer not to use kanji when they're part of a grammatical pattern :) I systematically replace all the 事, 過ぎる, 時etc with their hiragana counterparts. I would use kanji only for more formal context. And since what you wrote is in the plain speech most of the time, these kanji (inside of grammatical expressions) look a bit heavy (to me).

6. 一番大切なことだと思います
I think with this, I am always supposed to everything in the most plain form (shortest form) and then put the politeness or informal/intimate marker at the end. Correct?


Before the particle と, the general rule is to use the verb in its plain version.
例文: -だと言う, 行くと思う, 片付けないといけません 等々

7. オンライン辞典があるて使えないとです。
a. What I was trying to do here is use “ある” + “..て”, would “ありて” have been correct?
b. With “ないとです”, I was trying to use the informal ‘have to’ “ないと” + a polite sentence ending. Since ““ないとです” is incorrect then what would be correct?


a : I've never seen the expression you mention. :) We can do a bit of research about it later, I would be interested to know in which context you can use it.

b : the thing is this informal "have to" is the shortened version of -ないといけない, so I don't think it can be followed by the copula です. But once again, I might be wrong.

8. 日本語でだけ話する決心したから
For “話する決心したから”, this was supposed to be “話すのを決心したから”. I just made a typo there. Would the version I just changed be correct?


I suppose your version is correct. I just thought 決心 was a bit too strong (= "strong determination"). Maybe just 決定 ? I don't know, it all depends on the emphasis you want to use here.

9. 本当にもっとよく
So, 本当 always has to have に after it?


The problem is, as Karavinka mentioned, you use different speech levels in your text so I'm not sure at times if you're trying to be familiar or polite. Without に, it would belong to the familiar spoken language.

10. 本当にもっとよく感じる(わけだ)
I’m not sure what the optional わけだ would do to the sentence to make it better/more accurate...


It's just because I rephrased the sentence so I needed to find an appropriate ending to it.

11. アリが入っていることが見えないか。
Why did you use the hiragana instead of the kanji for事?


As I said before, I usually don't use kanji when the word is just used inside of a grammatical pattern. Or, here for こと, when it is used to nominalize a verb.
If you insist on using kanji for everything, then why writing 蟻 in katakana ? アリ can also be written in kanji.

12. 全部をよくする事知ってるように怒鳴ってないでよ
With the above, what I meant to type was “全部をよくさせるかのように怒鳴らないでぞ。Would that be correct?


But させる would refer to you in this sentence, no ? The meaning wouldn't be the same. I don't really understand why you rephrased it like that.

13. 何でも扱えるみたいに
I don’t know what扱える means here...?
( I think みたいに means “like” similar to “ように” and 何でも means “everything”. )


扱う (あつかう) = to handle something.
I translated it more as "like you can handle anything". You can also use the verb やる here, it would suit the context and the type of speech you use (use of the gobi ぞ).
何でも is more like "anything". I'm sometimes a bit confused in English about when I should use "anything" or "everything", to be perfectly honest.
みたいに is just a 話し言葉, it sounds more relaxed than ように here but it's just my perception.

14. モルモン教の人
So, if I add the name of a religion such as Mormon (モルモン) +教の人 then that means “a person of that religion” (i.e. a Mormon) ??


I would say so, yes. I don't think you can refer to a Christian, a Muslim or any follower of any religion without stating clearly you're talking about a person.

15. 横たわっていて今日何をするか思っていた
a. 横たわっていて <- So, here I have to useながら always? I knew aboutながらbut I just chose to use て by itself anyway to be more general, I suppose.
b. 思っていた <- Here we go again with the differences between 思うand 考える...


I had the feeling you were talking about simultaneous actions here, hence the -ながら. The suspensive -て form is usually for succeeding actions. But I don't think it's really a "mistake" here.

16. 見に(会いに)行ける
Since you会いに in parenthesis, I can assume that it is optional, right?


Yes.

17. そうしなかったらいつも土曜日はする事(こと)ができる。
a. Why is そうしなかったら better than そうしないなら? Isn’t そうしなかったらpast tense? What I wrote is present negative tense...


It's not the past tense here. It's a conditional. You make it by adding the -らending to the past/accomplished form of the verb. The difference between the -なら, -と, -たら patterns are very complicated and I still haven't fully mastered them, I'm afraid. Now that I think about it (everytime I log on UL it's very late so I apologize for not replying with a fresh mind), my correction was wrong. -なら is the correct form here. そうしないなら = in case/if I don't do that, then...


So, I can’t use で to mean “at” in reference to days, weeks, months, years? I have to use は, right?


土曜日は = on Saturdays / usually on Saturdays
土曜日に = this Saturday

19. でもそうするのはうんざりしますよ
a. I’m not sure why you put のは in bold text... That’s the same thing I wrote. lol
b. Why must I use していますinstead of just しますhere?


The bold part must have been a typo.
-している is because you are effectively/really bored/tired of something in particular at the moment you say the sentence.
To me, -する would be used when talking about something that usually makes you bored, in general (山を登るのはうんざりする/うんざりだ).

20. 仕事をしてた時に会った
にis mandatory here? I thought it was pretty much always or mostly optional...?


I added に to make it easier to read here. 時会 together looks strange. I think it's better to avoid kanji sequences when they're not part of the same expression.

21. 新しい友達といっしょうに明日
I’m not sure why you put とafter友達...?


This expression is always like that : 友達一緒に, 母一緒に etc.
Be careful by the way, it's いっしょ, not いっしょう.

22. すこし考えてから行くことにした
a. Again, the difference between “思う” and “考える” ?
b. Why did you use the grammar てからas opposed to ...て後で ?
c. ことにする <- I know this is an alternate way of expressing “to decide to do smth.” but what was wrong with my version?


a : see above.

b : because before 後で, you can't use the -て form. It should be 考え後で (dictionary form of the verb).

c : nothing wrong I guess with your version... maybe it's just that Chinese kanji loanwords look too formal, stiff, in this context (according to... me, but it's merely an impression).

23. 全部した料理のなかで多分三つ(三味 <- ?) (三皿 = みさら)が好きだった
a. Instead of 三つ, I could also use三皿, right?
b. Then, what is the food condiments counter 味 used for? Example(s)?
c. Why is全部した料理のなかでbetter than全部料理した物の中で ?


a : I just looked it up to know which classifier word should be used here but I suppose in daily life, people would probably not bother and say 三つ :) .

b : -味 would be used when talking about spices etc. Also for the perception of different tastes in the food you eat. I don't think it can be used to count cooked dishes.

c : I find it very hard to explain this one. Let's have a try though.
料理する = to cook
料理 = can mean both the act of cooking OR the result, the cooked thing/dish.

So it's a bit confusing here, or redundant maybe. It makes sense but it's a bit heavy maybe.
Other options :
作った料理
作った物

24. 違う美味しい食べ物がなかったからだ
a. Why is他にused instead of違う?
b. Why is他にused instead of他の?


I would use 違う to talk about something different, in the sense of "something unusual, new". If you want to say "something different/else than...", then maybe 他fits better here. You don't have to use the adverbial 他に , 他の is also fine.

25. 彼はあたし(?)に美味しい食べ物を食べたがると言った。
Oops, I forgot that あたしis feminine first person.


I was wondering if you had sex reassignment surgery recently. :hmm:

26. いろいろな国語を勉強したと欲しいだたが
いろいろな言語を勉強すればよかった
a. Difference between国語 and言語?
b. 勉強すればよかった <- When you typed that grammar pattern, I remembered that it was a common grammar to indicate “to wish smth. happened”. But I also think I saw “verb + と欲しいだ” representing “to wish smth. happened” also. How is this grammar used then since I didn’t use it correctly?


a : 国語 in Japanese means "Japanese language". See expressions like 国語辞典,
国語力... 言語 is the word normally to refer to any language.

b : I've never heard of this verb + と欲しいだ form. I checked in my grammar books and didn't find any entry.

27. もう一度思ってそうしなかったのはよかったよ。
省みると、そうしなくてよかったよ
I understand your version and like it but what specifically is wrong with my version?


Nothing wrong with the first part, but maybe not very elegant (my own Japanese is also far from being elegant though !). But for the rest, there is a specific form in -てよかった that can be used here.

28. きょうはお天気であった欲しい
きょうはお天気がよければよかった。
Again, I understand your version and like it but what specifically is wrong with my version?


You didn't mentioned HOW the weather should have been (bad or good). And the pattern with ほしいshould be preceded by a -て form.



It's 1:03am and I'm exhausted... My brain cells don't seem to function properly anymore... I just hope the things I said can be useful to you.

参考になれば幸いです。おやすみなさい。


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