Rí's Japanese Questions

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Rí.na.dTeangacha
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Rí's Japanese Questions

Postby Rí.na.dTeangacha » 2021-02-25, 21:23

I've been reading a manga called ダーリングは外国人 about a Japanese woman and her American husband. There's a page of text which I haven't been completely able to translate and I could use some help. The context is that the author is describing a cultural habit of her husband which she finds objectionable in the context of Japanese society.

Below is my attempt at a sentence-by-sentence translation. I'm not aiming for naturalness it the English translation really, it's just to get the point across.

トニーのひとりごと
Tony's Monologue

クレームは店長に言おう
Complaints should be sorted out with the manager
(This appears in a thought bubble above the character's head)

お金を払う代わりに何らかのサービスを受ける。
Various services can be exchanged for money.
たとえ、IT化が進んでも、この人間同士の約束は、多少融通がきいてもいいだろう。
For example, as IT is progressing, the function of these people should be adapting???

「左ききのもの、ないかな?」、「だいぶ冷えてきたけど、エアコンを調整してくれない?」など、お客さんがいってみて、初めて気づかれる「ニーズ」というものがある。
"You don't have any left-handed ones, do you?" or "It's kind of cold in here, can you change the air-con settings?" etc. whatever the customer asks for, their needs should come first.

しかし、マニュアル通りの商売を行っているところが増えている。
But the instances where a service "manual" is being followed are increasing.

まったく交渉の余地がなくなるほど、商売プロセスをパターン化してしまったら、競争社会では負けるはず。
If you're going to standardise the service process to the extent that the role of negotiation is is diminished, you're going to lose out in a competitive community.

例えばあまり混んでいない広いレストランにさおりとふたりで入った場合、窮屈なテーブルには座りたくない。
For example, when he went into a large, fairly empty restaurant with Saori, he didn't want to sit at a cramped table.

店員がマニュアルに従って狭いテーブルを進めたら、目線がマニュアルより若干上にあるはずの店長と交渉しよう。
When the staff member, following the manual, offers a small table, we should try talking to the manager, who should be able to consider more than just the manual.

店側は「だめだ」という自由がある。そしてお客さんはサービスを選択する自由もある。
For the shop's part, they have the freedom to say "No". The customer also has the freedom to choose (another) service.

自由とは、行使して初めて自由と呼べるものだが。
Freedom is called freedom after the first time you use it(?)

I found much of the above difficult to parse, and I'm sure my misparsing of earlier sections probably made me misunderstand later ones.

If anyone one wants to take a shot at translating it or pointing out errors in my translation (or better ways of interpreting it), all (constructive) input is welcome :)
(pt-br)(ja) - Formerly Ciarán12

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Yasna
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Re: Rí's Japanese Questions

Postby Yasna » 2021-02-26, 2:55

Rí.na.dTeangacha wrote:たとえ、IT化が進んでも、この人間同士の約束は、多少融通がきいてもいいだろう。
For example, as IT is progressing, the function of these people should be adapting???

That's たとえ, not たとえば. "Even though IT adoption is progressing, it wouldn't hurt to be somewhat flexible with this promise between people (to exchange a service for money)."

「左ききのもの、ないかな?」、「だいぶ冷えてきたけど、エアコンを調整してくれない?」など、お客さんがいってみて、初めて気づかれる「ニーズ」というものがある。
"You don't have any left-handed ones, do you?" or "It's kind of cold in here, can you change the air-con settings?" etc. whatever the customer asks for, their needs should come first.

There are some customer needs which you don't notice until a customer says things like...

しかし、マニュアル通りの商売を行っているところが増えている。
But the instances where a service "manual" is being followed are increasing.

But the number of places doing business according to protocol is increasing.

まったく交渉の余地がなくなるほど、商売プロセスをパターン化してしまったら、競争社会では負けるはず。
If you're going to standardise the service process to the extent that the role of negotiation is is diminished, you're going to lose out in a competitive community.

If you standardize business processes to the point where there's zero room left for negotiation, you're bound to lose in a competitive world.

自由とは、行使して初めて自由と呼べるものだが。
Freedom is called freedom after the first time you use it(?)

It's not freedom until you've exercised it.

The other parts look mostly right. Hope that helps.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

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Re: Rí's Japanese Questions

Postby Rí.na.dTeangacha » 2021-02-26, 12:19

Thanks, that's very helpful!

Yasna wrote:That's たとえ, not たとえば.


Noted thanks!

Yasna wrote:There are some customer needs which you don't notice until a customer says things like...


I knew I had totally misparsed that sentence. It makes sense now that you put it that way.

Yasna wrote:But the number of places doing business according to protocol is increasing.


That's interesting that you can use ところ to refer to a "place" as in a business just as we do in English. I think I was trying to interpret it as a metaphorical "place" and hence translated it as "instance".


Yasna wrote:It's not freedom until you've exercised it.


Thanks, that one was really confusing me. I think I actually parsed it correctly, but still couldn't really understand what she meant by it. Just goes to show you how different Japanese and English are - I understood all the words and the grammar and still didn't actually understand what it meant! Hopefully more reading will solve the problem.
(pt-br)(ja) - Formerly Ciarán12

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Re: Rí's Japanese Questions

Postby Yasna » 2021-02-27, 3:57

Rí.na.dTeangacha wrote:That's interesting that you can use ところ to refer to a "place" as in a business just as we do in English. I think I was trying to interpret it as a metaphorical "place" and hence translated it as "instance".

Thinking about it a second and a third time, I think this sentence is actually ambiguous. Maybe a native speaker can weigh in.

Thanks, that one was really confusing me. I think I actually parsed it correctly, but still couldn't really understand what she meant by it. Just goes to show you how different Japanese and English are - I understood all the words and the grammar and still didn't actually understand what it meant! Hopefully more reading will solve the problem.

Listening also helps since stress provides clues about meaning.

I've heard a lot about ダーリングは外国人 over the years but never got around to reading it. Are you enjoying it?
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

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Re: Rí's Japanese Questions

Postby Saim » 2021-02-28, 0:45

Rí.na.dTeangacha wrote:That's interesting that you can use ところ to refer to a "place" as in a business just as we do in English. I think I was trying to interpret it as a metaphorical "place" and hence translated it as "instance".


That reminds me of a question I had recently, is it true that ところ can mean a place as in someone's place (home)? I've been slowly going through a premade shared deck from the Anki website and it had this sentence:

私は友達のところに泊まった。
I stayed at my friend's place for the night.

Which I was honestly very surprised by, it feels like an awkward translation from English. It would be a shame if the sentences weren't accurate since the audio is quite good.

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Re: Rí's Japanese Questions

Postby Rí.na.dTeangacha » 2021-02-28, 19:03

Yasna wrote:Maybe a native speaker can weigh in.


I don't think we have any active native Japanese speakers on UL, do we? I remember Karavinka used to be active, and although he wasn't a native speaker he was extremely proficient from what I remember.

Yasna wrote:I've heard a lot about ダーリングは外国人 over the years but never got around to reading it. Are you enjoying it?


I've only read a small way into the first volume (I see there are apparently 3 volumes), but I'm enjoying it. It's a little shocking to my Western sensibilities that the author talks so openly about physical differences (there's a two-page section where she describes the prominence of his facial features in a somewhat grotesque way that feels a little bit freakshowish, but this is to be expected). It's interesting to see the perspective of Japanese people on Western social customs (such as the section you helped me translate above). I'm expecting (and hoping for) more of these kinds of observations. As far as the artwork goes, she has her own style which has its charm, but it isn't the most technically proficient drawing I've ever seen to say the least.

Saim wrote:That reminds me of a question I had recently, is it true that ところ can mean a place as in someone's place (home)? I've been slowly going through a premade shared deck from the Anki website and it had this sentence:

私は友達のところに泊まった。
I stayed at my friend's place for the night.

Which I was honestly very surprised by, it feels like an awkward translation from English. It would be a shame if the sentences weren't accurate since the audio is quite good.


Yeah, that's the kind of usage I also would have thought of as being too similar to English, but now I'm not sure. I'll try to find out more about the various uses of ところ, in the meantime let's hope a native comes along and clarifies it for us.

EDIT: I checked on tatoeba.org and there were other translations with ところ referring to one's house, though I also saw a few with 家. I went old school and checked my physical dictionaries as they're probably curated a little better, I found 家 in the smaller ones but in my Kenkyusha's New Collegiate Japanese English Dictionary (Third Edition) I found this in their substantial entry on ところ:

ブリッジをやりに私の所へ来ませんか。
Won't you come over to my place for a game of bridge?

I also checked my Kodansha Kanji Usage Guide entry for 所 (ところ), and although they don't give any example sentences with this usage they do list one of its senses as "one's place, one's house, one's address".
So I'm inclined to believe it is in fact a legitimate usage. I'm also happier than I should be that I got to use my paper reference materials to solve this mystery :) (I feel like some kind of medieval monk or wizard looking through a spellbook!)
(pt-br)(ja) - Formerly Ciarán12


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