księżyc - 日本語

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księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2017-09-02, 16:40

As per typical Unilang fashion, this is my personal thread for sharing my progress, and for asking questions as I venture to learn Japanese. It'll probably turn out similarly to my Irish thread, in which I'll ask questions and translate things.

For the time being, I'm thinking of posting some notes/review of the previous lessons I've gone over in my textbook, Minna no Nihongo. I'll post them in a day or two.

じゃね! :D

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2017-09-03, 19:31

I've instead decided to read and translate the first paragraph of 「アメリカザリガニ」 by さくらももこ in 「齋藤孝のイッキによめる! 名作選小学1年生」. I hope to post it later this week. I plan to go a paragraph a week at the moment. It does contain quite a bit of vocabulary and grammar that I haven't formally gotten to yet, so we'll see how well I do.

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2017-09-21, 18:25

よし!始まりよ~~!!

Text:
わたしが五さいのころ、近所の家のおばさんが、小さいエビを見せてくれだ。おばさんの話によると、そのエビは ”アメリカザリガニ” という生き物らしい。今にしておもえば、あのとき見せてもらったものはまだ子どものアメリカザリガニだったから小さいエビのように見えたのだが、当時のわたしはすっかり ”アメリカザリガニは小さいエビのようなものなのだ” と思いこんでしまった。そしてどうしてもそれがほしくなった。


Translation:
Around the time I was 5 years old I had the pleasure1 of seeing a small lobster2 in the neighborhood of my Aunt's house. My aunt would call that lobster an "American Crayfish."3 Only now do I have reason to believe that what I saw at that time was just a young American crayfish, but those days I mistakenly thought, "an American crayfish is a small lobster!" Then, no matter what...4

Notes:
1. I'm not sure if "pleasure" is a good translation of くれた

2. I translate エビ as lobster both because of the name given (American crawfish), and at first because there's a picture of a lobster on one of the pages with the story. :lol: Regardless, context seems to make it clear that a lobster is being talked about, rather than a shrimp or prawn.

3. I wasn't sure how to work 生き物らしい into this sentence.

4. I believe I have all the pieces [and then/no matter what/there/ga/came to want], but I'm not sure how best to translate it. If I understand correctly ほしくなった means that a person (other than the speaker or listener) wants something, right?

I was also going to gloss this too, but I think that will come on another paragraph/story. And I'm still working on my ability to tell where words end, as I'm used to languages written in the Latin alphabet, so please point out any mistakes! In fact, point out any at all!
Last edited by księżycowy on 2017-09-24, 9:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby Yasna » 2017-09-22, 5:40

księżycowy wrote:Text:
わたしが五さいのころ、近所の家のおばさんが、小さいエビを見せてくれだ

Translation:
Around the time I was 5 years old I had the pleasure1 of seeing a small lobster2 in the neighborhood of my Aunt's house.

近所の家のおばさん means a "lady living in the neighborhood". There's no family relationship here. In this case 見せてくれた means "showed me", so the lady showed the narrator a shrimp.

今にしておもえば、あのとき見せてもらったものはまだ子どものアメリカザリガニだったから小さいエビのように見えたのだが、

Only now do I have reason to believe that what I saw at that time was just a young American crayfish,

This part means "Thinking back now, the red swamp crawfish she showed me looked like a small shrimp because it was still a child"

”アメリカザリガニは小さいエビのようなものなのだ”

"an American crayfish is a small lobster!"

"A red swamp crawfish is like a small shrimp"

2. I translate エビ as lobster both because of the name given (American crawfish), and at first because there's a picture of a lobster on one of the pages with the story. :lol: Regardless, context seems to make it clear that a lobster is being talked about, rather than a shrimp or prawn.

You probably understand now, but the crux of this paragraph is that the narrator mistakenly identified the crawfish as a shrimp back then because it was a young, small crawfish.

3. I wasn't sure how to work 生き物らしい into this sentence.

You could say "According to the lady, that shrimp was a creature called a "red swamp crawfish"".

4. I believe I have all the pieces [and then/no matter what/there/ga/came to want], but I'm not sure how best to translate it. If I understand correctly ほしくなった means that a person (other than the speaker or listener) wants something, right?

そしてどうしてもそれがほしくなった means "And then I had to have it". That rule about ほしい not being used for a speaker's wishes only applies when it is tacked on to a verb.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2017-09-22, 12:42

Yasna wrote:近所の家のおばさん means a "lady living in the neighborhood". There's no family relationship here.
Good to know.
In this case 見せてくれた means "showed me", so the lady showed the narrator a shrimp.

I'm assuming that was a mistake on my part as far as looking up things in my dictionary, as I learned later on when I found 思いこんでしまった in it. I should have taken another pass at some of these terms.

This part means "Thinking back now, the red swamp crawfish she showed me looked like a small shrimp because it was still a child"

So 見せてもらった means "showed me", similar to 見せてくれた above? If so, is there an difference between the two terms and their usage?

I suppose I translated the beginning of the English sentence a little more literally then you did. They have similar meanings. Though I might have placed "fact" in the wrong place. Iḿ still getting the hang of word order.

As below, I forgot to translate "like".
I also forgot about the meaning of から as "because."

"A red swamp crawfish is like a small shrimp"

See above.

You probably understand now, but the crux of this paragraph is that the narrator mistakenly identified the crawfish as a shrimp back then because it was a young, small crawfish.

Yes. I probably should have caught on a little sooner, but I get it now. :P

You could say "According to the lady, that shrimp was a creature called a "red swamp crawfish"".

That would definitely work. Though I wonder, would it be necessary to translate it into English? It seems kind of redundant to me. Or at least extra lengthy/specific.

そしてどうしてもそれがほしくなった means "And then I had to have it". That rule about ほしい not being used for a speaker's wishes only applies when it is tacked on to a verb.

I see. My dictionary only gives the rule, not the situations where the rule is in effect.

Thanks for all the help Yasna!

Seeing as my dictionary was at least partially to blame I wonder if anyone can give me any good recommendations for physical dictionaries?

I currently have the Kodansha Furigana dictionary. Which is good, but obviously problematic in places.
I do plan to pick up the Dictionary of Basic Grammar (or whatever the exact title is) by the Japan Times if I remember correctly.
Last edited by księżycowy on 2017-09-24, 9:08, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby Yasna » 2017-09-22, 15:43

księżycowy wrote:I'm assuming that was a mistake on my part as far as looking up things in my dictionary, as I learned later on when I found 思いこんでしなった in it. I should have taken another pass at some of these terms.

The dictionary term would be 見せる. Did you find the whole phrase "思いこんでしった" in a dictionary? The word I would have expected to find in a dictionary would be 思い込む.

So 見せてもらった means "showed me", similar to 見せてくれた above? If so, is there an difference between the two terms and their usage?

They are actually two very different constructions. I think showing the information that is omitted might clear it up.
おばさん が わたし に 小さい エビ を 見せて くれた
あの とき わたし が おばさん に 見せて もらった もの は まだ 子ども の アメリカザリガニ だった
In both cases the lady showed the narrator the shrimp/crawfish. Don't let the musical chairs of particles throw you off.

That would definitely work. Though I wonder, would it be necessary to translate it into English? It seems kind of redundant to me. Or at least extra lengthy/specific.

You're right. It's unnecessary in an idiomatic translation. Japanese likes this type of redundancy.
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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2017-09-22, 16:16

Yasna wrote:The dictionary term would be 見せる. Did you find the whole phrase "思いこんでしった" in a dictionary? The word I would have expected to find in a dictionary would be 思い込む.

The latter, the dictionary doesn't give declined forms except in examples. So the term in question is a compound then I assume, not a single term. Unless it's a conjugation I'm not familiar with.

They are actually two very different constructions. I think showing the information that is omitted might clear it up.
おばさん が わたし に 小さい エビ を 見せて くれた
あの とき わたし が おばさん に 見せて もらった もの は まだ 子ども の アメリカザリガニ だった
In both cases the lady showed the narrator the shrimp/crawfish. Don't let the musical chairs of particles throw you off.

Thanks, that does help to clear up my confusion. I still have to get used to omissions in Japanese.

Thanks again Yasna!

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2017-09-23, 10:43

Ok, here is the reworked translation:

Around the time I was 5 years old a lady living in the neighborhood showed me a small shrimp. According to the lady, that shrimp2 was a creature called "an American crawfish." Thinking back now, the American crawfish she showed me looked like a small shrimp because it was still a child, but those days I thought, "an American crayfish is like a small shrimp!" And then I had to have it.

Notes:
1. Still not sure if that's a good translation.

2. I wonder if it would it be possible to translate エビ as "lobster" in these positions, because this is her telling us now, when she knows it's not a shrimp?
Last edited by księżycowy on 2017-09-24, 9:11, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby Karavinka » 2017-09-24, 4:12

księżycowy wrote:Ok, here is the reworked translation:

Around the time I was 5 years old I had the pleasure1 of being shown a small shrimp2 by a lady living in the neighborhood. According to the lady, that shrimp2 was a creature called "an American crawfish." Thinking back now, the American crawfish she showed me looked like a small shrimp because it was still a child, but those days I mistakenly thought, "an American crayfish is like a small shrimp!" And then I had to have it.

Notes:
1. Still not sure if that's a good translation.

2. I wonder if it would it be possible to translate エビ as "lobster" in these positions, because this is her telling us now, when she knows it's not a shrimp?


I think "she showed me" is a better translation. Between miseta and misete kureta there is only a difference of slight respect, which turns out awkward in English if the translator tries too hard.

And in this context, I'd use "shrimp" for ebi throughout. The author thought it was a small shrimp, and calls it as such.

Not sure if pointed out already, but the 思い込んでしまった rather than しなった. "Mistakenly" is a bit too strong a word I think, I'd go with "I haven't doubted that" or "I've been thinking that ... until now," but at this point it's a matter of English, not Japanese, style.
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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2017-09-24, 9:14

Karavinka wrote:I think "she showed me" is a better translation. Between miseta and misete kureta there is only a difference of slight respect, which turns out awkward in English if the translator tries too hard.
Fixed.

And in this context, I'd use "shrimp" for ebi throughout. The author thought it was a small shrimp, and calls it as such.
Ok.

Not sure if pointed out already, but the 思い込んでしまった rather than しなった. "Mistakenly" is a bit too strong a word I think, I'd go with "I haven't doubted that" or "I've been thinking that ... until now," but at this point it's a matter of English, not Japanese, style.

Yasna had pointed it out in one of his posts, but I didn't notice it until you said something. I fixed it now.

What if I simply take out "mistaken"?

I'll start working on the next paragraph, and I hope to post it in a week (if not less).

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-05, 23:57

This week, rather than post the next paragraph, I intend to parse the Japanese on the first paragraph (I know that will be a relatively simple task for Japanese, but I definitely want to get the practice with word boundaries), and also take note of new vocabulary and structures.

I'll get to work on that and hopefully post it by the weekend.

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-15, 14:32

So, I apologise for not updating this thread in a while. Unfortunately it's crunchtime for my thesis, so I've had to largely put my learning on hold.

BUT! That's not why I'm here. I was curious if there is a realtively easy to translate Jpop or Jrock song?

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2018-01-15, 23:25

This thread has been devoid of activity for far too long. So I'm going to start working on a story again. :)

I got the readers this week and I'm liking them so far. I may skip to the next level fairly quickly, as this level (which has 3 volumes, I only have the first) is quite simple. But it'll be good practice none the less. I'll catalogue new words and kanji and I go.

The first story is called 桜(さくら)and, as I'm sure you can imagine, is about cherry blossom viewing.

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-13, 11:55

I'm going to just throw an idea out there and see if it takes. :P

If anyone wants to get a study group going for Japanese (whether that means going through the same resource, or different ones), this is an open invitation. :)

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-06-24, 14:12

はい!

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby ceid donn » 2018-06-24, 23:51

I could join you for a Japanese study group if it was like the one you're doing for Irish--that is, not too intensive. I doubt I am at your level so I'll probably just stick to what I have--Colloquial Japanese, Human Japanese and the Memrise courses. I had started the Memrise Japanese course for French speakers and got through the 2nd course, but I would need to review. I think I remember more kanji than I do hiragana and katakana combined.

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-24, 23:55

Cool. I also have Genki (both volumes), but it doesn't sound like you have that either.

Whatever the case, we could do it like me and Salajane started in the Polish study group: use different resources, set out own weekly goals, and talk about what we learned and help each other out with questions.

I'm also amused people keep saying my level is so much higher than theirs. It really isn't. :P

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby ceid donn » 2018-06-25, 0:05

No, I don't have Genki, sorry. I can work on CJ and the Memrise course. That's fine. Just let me know when you want to start.

Do you want to use this thread for the study group?

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-25, 0:10

Nah, I'll start a new thread momentarily. :)

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Re: księżyc - 日本語

Postby księżycowy » 2018-08-05, 16:00

Ok, so to start this thread up gain, I'll start translating my shrimp story again, starting with the second paragraph.

I'll probably also post my translations of reading material in the reading workbook for MnN when there is an interesting passage.

I'll also post a composition every two weeks or so (depending on how much I get done in the main textbooks for MnN; there are only 20 composition lessons, so I will try to spread those out over 50 main lessons, though only 15 of them are intended to be for the beginning lessons; the last 5 are beginning intermediate compositions, so we'll see how this all works out).

Finally, here is a pdf copy of the text I was working on, and will be starting again:
アメリカザリガニ.pdf


In case Vijay or anyone else wants to take a look and/or join in.

I'll post my first round of translations and a composition by Saturday (Aug. 11).
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