Subjects in sentences with V-ながら

[PtrTlr]

Hello, good people.
In lots of books and other materials all over the Internet I have read that in a sentence the subject of the verb with ながら and the subject of the main verb have to be coreferential, ie. refer to the same person or thing, as in 音楽を聞きながら宿題をしました 'listening to music I did my homework'.

Now I have met someone who says this is not always true and that it is possible in informal spoken Japanese to produce sentences with ながら where the subjects are different, but I cannot find any information confirming that claim. Could anyone shed some light on this problem? I would be grateful.

[Achmedino]

Never heard of the form (I'm a novice in japanese though, so it's no surprise...) I'd be interested in knowing the answer as well.

[Ciarán12]

From what I can find out, and from how I've used it/heard it being used, it can only be used when the subject of both clauses is the same.

I got this from A Dictionary of Basic Japanese:


So I supposed you'd used "suru aida" if you wanted to have different subjects.
Who was it that said it could be used with different referents? Were they Japanese? And did they say what circumstances it would apply to?

[PtrTlr]

I know DBJG, as well as a few others, e.g. Beginning Japanese by Jorden, Japanese - A Comprehensive Grammar by Kaiser et al. (both editions), Japanese for Busy People, Colloquial Japanese, Minna no Nihongo — they all say that there is one person doing two actions in sentences of this kind.

Who was it that said it could be used with different referents? Were they Japanese? And did they say what circumstances it would apply to?

On a Polish forum for Japanese learners there was someone asking to translate this sentence into Japanese: I'm having a shower so don't come in. Another user replied with 入浴しながら入らないでください. I disagreed quoting the "2 actions 1 subject" rule. Trying to convince him seemed impossible and he conlcuded that his translation was valid but in "spoken and informal" Japanese. No native speakers took part in the conversation (at least overtly).

Now, whenever I hear or read (especially from a non-native speaker) "but it's possible in informal and spoken" I am almost sure that I will not be presented with any examples from reliable sources. The discussion was over for my part. Then I thought maybe there is something I am not aware of. I am a Japanese learner too. All the sources I find reliable are consistent with this issue, yet I am still open to any possibilities.

[johnklepac]

It's generally less confusing to just have "nagara" refer to the subject/topic of the sentence. At worst you can just switch to a "toki" construction, e.g. "Meeri wa, Tomasu ga byouin ni haitteiru toki (ni), atta."

[IMABI]

As stated previously, ながら phrases have to have clauses that have the same subject--that seems like a lot of have's in one sentence...oh well.

As far as the sentence mentioned above, that is bad Japanese. It is best to say

入浴の時、入らないでください。

Also, if you bother to look up 入浴しながら with google.co.jp, you'll find 0 examples of how the person on the Polish form tried using it.

Here's the link to my lesson it for further reference: http://www.imabi.net/l55theparticlenagara.htm