where do i find it, the real japanese?

kaze
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where do i find it, the real japanese?

Postby kaze » 2011-01-30, 0:15

hello :)

i've been learning japanese for now 70 days, one lesson of 30 minutes audio each day, and i'm at lesson 70 of 90. in 20 days, my course will be over: "pimsleur's speak and understand essential japanese 1-3".
theoretically, that would mean i'd be at some kind of intermediate level, whatever that's being defined. i can read and write hiragana, but avoided kanji like the plague. i learned vocab on smart.fm, but that site's going to be turned into a cash cow at the start of april. dusted off ANKI and imported the "core 2000" goal, but i'm kind of ... irritated with this program. quizlet.com is kind of fun and effective, so i'm using that now.

but.

after all the learning of basic structures, being able to say things like "didn't you do a business trip to oosaka last month, too, miss tanaka?" or "please go this road straight ahead for approx. 50 meters, then turn to the right, and in front of the post office, there's my house", i found myself hopelessly dumbfounded by even short lines of chat with japanese natives.

the structures being taught are nothing like that. they're not even close. no native ever used desu or masu with me, and when i did, they told me to not be so polite, as it would sound totally unnatural. hum. i couldn't reproduce something like "doko iku no?" at all. i'm having a hard time even understanding that kind of expressions! i could express that content like this: "doko ni ikimasuka?", and in return get a "nobody talks like THIS!", in either words, or, more likely, between the lines - IF i'm able to get that.

mind you, i'm talking about the everyday japanese used in chats, on the net, between friends and so on. i don't talk about moving to japan and talking to random strangers, asking them for the way to shinjuku eki! i also don't talk about going on job search or having discussions with co-workers. i'm also not talking about joining the yakuza or cosplaying kurosaki ichigo, running around with an oversized bread knife, yelling "iku ze" or "temee" at random people. i'm talking about good, healthy, working japanese for everyday conversation with friends.

i've surrounded myself with lots of japanese online friends, but i'm unable to converse with them in japanese - they even use roumaji with me, because they KNOW that this is the easiest way for me to pick up new words, phrases and the like. and yet ...

i tried to find "informal/casual japanese" courses on the net. you would expect that with millions of websites, there must be ONE that has something like that. something that teaches you stuff like "doko ga hen na no" is girly-speech, "tabete kure" is macho style being used when you're angry/irritated with someone AND you're male ... and so on.

see, pimsleur taught me a lot of formal japanese. gokazoku to isshou ni nihon ni irasshaimasuka?

i feel that after 70 days of daily studies, i should atleast be able to get a grip of the basics. i realized i had to learn the dictionary forms from scratch, because reverting back from masu to dictionary will be a pain and is not easily been done. i'm slooooo(insert 20more 'o' here)ooowly trying to do that by picking conjugations like ~nai, writing up short texts containing only stuff like sushi wo tabenai, oosaka ni ikenai and so on, to post them on Lang-8, where they're being shred to pieces by native speakers.

i'm frustrated.

i wanted to learn human japanese. what i got was ... i don't know. japanese that's only useful as a millionaire on a business trip to tykyo?

so, if you know how to START to fix my problem, maybe a first step, some website that shows by example, or some ... well maybe even youtube informal japanese series or -whatever-, so i'd see a light at the end of the tunnel, i may be motivated to pick it up again to start moving. right now i feel stuck with "plastic japanese". nice, clean, watch, but dont touch.

doumo arigatou gozaimasu!
PS: i know, my english isn't good. so please excuse me, i did what i could.

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md0
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Re: where do i find it, the real japanese?

Postby md0 » 2011-02-04, 17:15

I can think of one thing: pick a non-fantasy, non-historical anime and copy the speaking habits of the character whose personality you find easier to relate.

I did so and I ended up speaking like a teenage boy from Osaka :roll:

PS. The Japanese people I speak with, always correct me when I use the plain forms instead of the -masu ones. But it's maybe because I start with -masu and I switch to plain forms midway.

PS2. You can't avoid Kanji if you want to text-chat in real Japanese.
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kaze
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Re: where do i find it, the real japanese?

Postby kaze » 2011-02-05, 1:02

I don't intend to live without Kanji forever. But I feel that mastering the language itself comes first for me.
I found a website that suits my needs btw, timwerx is great stuff. Currently working on the verbs lesson by lesson. :)

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モモンガ
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Re: where do i find it, the real japanese?

Postby モモンガ » 2011-02-22, 15:15

OK, you may try something like Tae Kim's grammar guide.
he does not avoid slang.

Good choice is rather reading a manga than watching anime - try ones produced for teens - they have pronunciation guides, so it's OK if you cannot read kanji yet.
Shounen Jump Stuff.

or maybe Yotsuba, it's easy stuff to read.

You can find some manga fro download - just search for raw manga.

OK, so I will try to teach you something I learned from manga:


たかい、はやい = たけえ、はええ
it's a very rough speech, it is said to have originated from Middle class tokyo speech.
It's usually spoken by males, ai and oi change into ee, ui into ii (samui becomes samii warui becomes warii).

ru and ra are often spelled as n :

わからない =わかんない

なにをするんだ? = なにをすんだ?


め - I believe it was originally modest word used to refer to yourself, but it's mostly used when you are angry t someone:
このうさぎめ! - this stupid rabbit! - a rabbit has eaten your carrot, so you got angry.
Always after a noun.

よ  - women use it at the end of a sentence instead of da.

これなに? what's this?

うさぎよ! it's rabbit.
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hlysnan
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Re: where do i find it, the real japanese?

Postby hlysnan » 2011-02-22, 21:23

モモンガ wrote:よ  - women use it at the end of a sentence instead of da.

これなに? what's this?

うさぎよ! it's rabbit.


When I was learning Japanese at uni, everyone was told to say よ, not just the females.

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Re: where do i find it, the real japanese?

Postby モモンガ » 2011-02-23, 18:24

Yasha wrote:
モモンガ wrote:よ  - women use it at the end of a sentence instead of da.

これなに? what's this?

うさぎよ! it's rabbit.


When I was learning Japanese at uni, everyone was told to say よ, not just the females.

I am not sure, but I feel they use it as equivalent of da.

as simply answering うさぎ! would be not enough.
I am not very sure about i.
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Re: where do i find it, the real japanese?

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-02-26, 3:30

Women sometimes end their sentences in "no yo", "na no yo"... but using "yo" only is certainly not specific to female speech.

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Re: where do i find it, the real japanese?

Postby unzum » 2011-02-26, 15:28

Nejimakidori wrote:Women sometimes end their sentences in "no yo", "na no yo"... but using "yo" only is certainly not specific to female speech.


Actually, using just yo at the end of nouns or na-adjectives is a more feminine speech, males would say 'da yo'. For i-adjectives and verbs it's the same for both sexes.
The same is true with 'ne'.

Male speech:
にほんじんだよ/きれいだよ
にほんじんだね/きれいだね

Female speech:
にほんじんよ/きれいよ
にほんじんね/きれいね

If you want to speak super-female speech you can add 'wa'
にほんじんだわよ/きれいだわよ
にほんじんだわね/きれいだわね
Warning: I got taught this at school but I haven't heard many female friends use it at all, it seems like it's used more by older women.

Another quick gender lesson, this time relating to んだ/のだ.
Male speech:
いくんだ
いくのか?/いくのかい

Female speech:
いくの
いくの?

I can testify having used it myself that there is a difference. I said something like いくんだ (I'm female) and made my friends laugh because it sounded so masculine.

Info got from 'An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese' which has a great table showing gender differences in casual speech at the beginning of the book.

Also for kaze, you won't be at an intermediate level after doing all of the 90 Pimsleur lessons. I've done it before, what you will have at the end is functional small talk at a polite level, it doesn't teach you any casual Japanese at all.

I woul recommend getting yourself a textbook, something like Genki or Japanese for Everyone (you can download the audio online). I used JFE and really loved it, it's hard work but there are numerous different exercises, clear grammar explanations and it gets rid of romaji very quickly. It also starts teaching casual Japanese very early on and mixes it with polite Japanese. At the last few chapters it even teaches you keigo (aka super-polite Japanese). It's great for getting the hang of basic grammar that you need to be an intermediate user.

This beginner's guide will also be helpful for getting well-rounded intermediate skills in Japanese.
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Śrāmaṇera

Re: where do i find it, the real japanese?

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2011-02-27, 2:40

unzum wrote:Actually, using just yo at the end of nouns or na-adjectives is a more feminine speech, males would say 'da yo'. For i-adjectives and verbs it's the same for both sexes.
The same is true with 'ne'.



My mistake. I am too lazy to study the male/female speech in depth and always tend to assume a "da yo" doesn't differ much from a "yo" :|

But while men would probably not use "yo" alone, I'm pretty sure I've heard young women ending their sentences with "da yo".


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