Similarities between japanese and amerindian languages

Unmundisto

Re: Similarities between japanese and amerindian languages

Postby Unmundisto » 2013-10-01, 17:31

I saved this reply for last, because it's in reply to a longer posting, and because it concludes my participation at this website.

Unmundisto wrote:Anyway, I'm not claiming that the Japanese/Tupi word-similarities prove that the words in question are common-ancestor survivals. But I'm saying that it isn't a terribly important issue either.

If by "issue" you mean the hypothesis of a common origin for Tupian and Japonic, then I agree with you. But I'm addressing the larger issue, which is one of properly evaluating arguments according to the evidence presented for them--not only in historical linguistics but also in the scientific endeavour in general.


Ah, so we're a defender of science. But if you're referring to your linked-to mathematical demonstration, then I remind you that it isn't a "proof" (to use your word) regarding the Japanese/Tupi instance. How often our Internet Defenders of Science turn out to just be ill-mannered common net-abusing pseudoscientists.

'
And that absolutely does matter. Because otherwise it leads to conclusions like this:
Unmundisto wrote:No, I haven't checked the OP's information. As I said, one of your objections is that such checking would need to be done, to verify the information, and I don't deny that. But in the initial posting, the word-similarities are remarkable.


That conclusion is simply not justified by the evidence presented.


I said that the similarities were remarkable--remarkablly close. I didn't say that they were conclusive. "Remarkable" and "Conclusive" are two different words, and don't have the same meaning. Remarkable similiarities needn't be conclusive in their import. You're still confusing word-meanings.

You do not know enough Tupi to judge whether the words listed are (a) actually attested; (b) accurately cited; or (c) mean something even close to what the Japanese words next to them mean.


A silly statement, because I clealy said the closeness of the meanings and sounds would need checking.

[For that matter, I'm also willing to bet you don't know enough Japanese to evaluate whether the definitions which John and Cumberbatch have given are accurate either.


As I said before, I'd already said that the closeness of the meanings and the sounds, of the paired words, would need checking.

You're looking at this list through doubly blind eyes and seeing only what you want to see.]


I made it clear that I wasn't taking a position on the common origin of the paired words. So it isn't entirely clear what beliefs of mine Linguoboy is referring to.

Unmundisto wrote:
"Impressive" is a subjective term. And subjectively, I think anyone who would even consider applying it to short, dubious list like this is very easily impressed.

One thing I like about Unilang is its absence of flamewarrior behavior; well almost. Try to limit yourself to the topic, as opposed to exprssion of your opinions of those with whom you disagree.

One thing I like about Unilang is that posters are generally well informed about languages and linguistics. We can't have everything we want from this thread, can we?


Yeah that's what I was referring to: Linguoboy feels a need to evaluate and express his opinion of those with whom he disagrees.

Linguoboy wants to imply that I've been making mis-statements that result from a lack of information about languages and linguistics. But, like other typical common flamewarriors and internet-abusers, Linguoboy forgot to specify the mis-statements, and how they result from some particular specified incorrect beliefs about languages or linguistics. It's easier to just do blanket, vague, unspecified and sloppy attempt at criticism.

I've participated in Internet discussions and debates before, on various subjects not including language, and I'm quite familiar with common net-abusers and their usual behaviors. So I'm not saying that I'm surprised to encounger another Internet abuser on the Internet. But I must admit that it's a bit disappointing to find that typical example of flamewarror-behavior here at Unilang, which seemed to be relatively free of it. I'd spoken of Unilang's "absence of flamewarrior behavior", but now I'm going to have to retract what I said then.

I've clarified that I don't make claims regarding a common origin of the OP's word-pairs.

I've said a number of things that make it clear that I don't claim to be a linguist. I haven't made claims about qualifications of mine. Therefore, Linguoboy's point in challenging my qualifications (of which I've claimed none) is unclear. ...except that common net-abusers need to criticize.

Maybe Linbuoboy is just saying that I shouldn't participate here, because I'm not a linguist, or am not expert enough. Just in case he's representatively speaking for the others at this website, I'll quit participating here. After I post this message, I'll cancel my membership at this website.

But another good reason to quit participating here is just because, for any forum-topic, there's no need or justificiation for participants to devote their postings to their opinions of other participants. Decorum matters, regarding the matter of whether or not a forum is worthwhile, and whether we like being there and are inclined to return.

Unmundisto

Kliedesys
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Re: Similarities between japanese and amerindian languages

Postby Kliedesys » 2015-09-22, 18:16

How about these similarities between Japanese and Lithuanian languages? Some are very close calls and some are just my imaginations that may as well be my delirium. Just in case any Russians read this I write translation in Russian as well, because Russian and Lithuanian has several hundred similar words:

Japanese - Lithuanian - (English) - (Russian)

Kawa (hide of animal) = kavoja, slepia (hiding) (прячет)
Oppai = papai (tits, breasts) (цыцки, груди)
Kande = kanda (bite, bites) (кусает)
Mushi = musë (bug, fly) (муха! но всё таки жук)
Oshiri = uzhpakalis (butt, behind) (Lit. often pron, as "oshpakalis") (задница, жопа) не очень удачное сравнение
Kochi kochi = kuti kuti (tickling, tickle-tickle) (щекотать)
Katai = kietai, kieta, kietas (hard) (твёрдый, твёрдо)
Konki = kantri (patience) (not very similar) не очень удачное сравнение
Tairaka = taikinga, taika (peaceful, peace) (мирный, мир)
Tooi = toli (far) (very similar because the Lithuanian vowel "o" is pronounced long like Japanese "oo") (далеко)
Wakai = vaikai (kids, young) (wakaa - in West Lithuanian dialect) (дети)
Ikimas(u) = ejimas (going) (ходьба)
Ikimasho = eikime (lets go) (давайте пойдём)
Ate = ate (end, bye) (пока, до свидания)
Aishiteru = aistra (JP: I love you; LT: passion) (я тебя люблю/страсть)
Te = te (JP: hand; LT: take it (command)) (возьми(те))
Mizu** = myzu (myzhu) JP: water; LT: I pee, I take a leak) (я писаю, сцу, яп. вода)
Tikyu = tikiu (pron. tikü) (JP: Earth; LT: I believe) (Яп. Земля, Лит. Я верю)

** Note the Portuguese MIJO (mizho) also means to pee.

There are others, but I lost the notes on those and have to do research again.

I think the following words are not JP/LT match-coincidences and could as well be from intense past contact or even a proof that ancient Japanese was not originally an Asian language:

Oppai, kande, mushi, koti koti, katai, tairaka, tooi, wakai, ate, te, mizu.

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Re: Similarities between japanese and amerindian languages

Postby linguoboy » 2015-09-22, 18:24

Kliedesys wrote:How about these similarities between Japanese and Lithuanian languages?

What about them? As I tried to explain to Unmundisto, it is trivially easy to compile lists like this--particularly if one allows onomatopoeic words (e.g. kochi kochi/kuti kuti) and cherry picks inflectional forms (as you did with verbs). It can be a fun way to waste some time, but it's no more than that.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


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Re: Similarities between japanese and amerindian languages

Postby linguoboy » 2015-09-22, 19:32

Kliedesys wrote:How about this page: http://www.slideshare.net/graspingfish/ ... -languages

How about it? It only proves my point. Igbo, Finnish, Tupinamba--why single out these languages when you could come up with an equally convincing set of resemblances for Japanese and any other language out there?

If you're interested in seeing what the process of historical reconstruction looks like when applied by actual linguists, let me know and I can recommend some reading. One of the very basic ground rules is that the correspondences should be systematic. I challenge you to find any rhyme or reason to any of the correspondence sets presented on those slides.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

Kliedesys
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Re: Similarities between japanese and amerindian languages

Postby Kliedesys » 2015-09-22, 22:09

I thought that information was a bunch of sensationalist nonsense. It's just fun to find similar or matching words in two completely different languages and then see what different people say about it. Still, knowing Japanese language I always was amazed how different it sounds from other Asian languages, if Chinese borrowings are set aside. Could it be a pro-European language? Or perhaps Pacific.

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Re: Similarities between japanese and amerindian languages

Postby linguoboy » 2015-09-22, 22:14

Kliedesys wrote:I thought that information was a bunch of sensationalist nonsense. It's just fun to find similar or matching words in two completely different languages and then see what different people say about it. Still, knowing Japanese language I always was amazed how different it sounds from other Asian languages, if Chinese borrowings are set aside. Could it be a pro-European language?

I don't even know what you're asking.

Of all the European languages, I've always thought Japanese sounded most like Finnish. They both have a relatively simple phonology that avoids initial clusters but allows for both geminate vowels and consonants. If only Finnish had pitch-accent then the resemblance would be even closer.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


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