româneşte - voron

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voron
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româneşte - voron

Postby voron » 2009-06-01, 19:52

I'm going to ask my questions about Romanian here. Thanks in advance for all your answers!

To start with, I'll try to translate the song "Bună dimineaţa" by "Zdob şi zdub". I found the text online and it didn't have any diacritics, so please check if I have put them correctly.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ezl2RGAzUU

Bună dimineaţa, ţară! / Good morning, country!
Mă trezeşte soarele, / The sun is waking me up,
Ies afară cu chitara, / I go outside with the guitar,
Ciocârlii-fanfarele. / Skylarks-fanfares.
Sună vesel a mea strună, / My string is playing merrily
Why is this "a" here? I guess it's a possessive article but I don't understand why it's needed here.

Vântul duce muzica, / The wind is carrying the music
Toată lumea cântă / All the world is singing
Melodia mea. / My melody

Hopa di-ri-dai
Hopa di-ri-dai
Bună dimineaţa! / Good morning!
Hopa di-ri-dai
Hopa di-ri-dai
Dulce-i viaţa! / Sweet life!
What does this "-i" do here? Is it the short form of "el" in dative?

Toată lumea! / All the people!
Împreună! / Together!

Melodia mea frumoasă / My beautiful melody
Zboară sus ca pasărea. / Is flying high like a bird.
În dimineaţa luminoasă / In the bright morning
Înfloreşte dragostea. / The love is flowering.
Cântă pasărea măiastră, / The magic bird is singing
Murmură izvorul lin, / The spring is murmuring quietly
Tot pământul se trezeşte / All the land is waking up
Dzin-dzilin!

Bună dimineaţa, mamă, / Good morning, mama,
Amintiri, copilărie. / Memories, childhood.
Bună dimineaţa, tată, / Good morning, dad
Vreau de bine să vă fie! / I wish that you (both) be well!
I don't quite understand the "de" here. Would it sound bad without it? - Vreau să vă fie bine
Do I understand correctly that "vă" is dative here?


Bună dimineaţa, lume, / Good morning, people,
Vă salut căci vă iubesc! / I'm greeting you because I love you!
Bună dimineaţa, viaţă, / Good morning, life,
Să trăiesc! / I will live!
I don't know how to translate the subjunctive here better to English.

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Re: româneşte - voron

Postby AdiJapan » 2009-06-02, 5:15

voron wrote:Sună vesel a mea strună, / My string is playing merrily
Why is this "a" here? I guess it's a possessive article but I don't understand why it's needed here.

The underlying rule is that the noun (or pronoun) expressing the possessor is always preceded by the possessive article: al, a, ai, ale. However, if the noun expressing the possessed object is placed in its usual position before the possessor and if it has the definite article appended to it, then the possessive article is omitted. Interestingly, it is the exception to the rule that occors the most often.

Examples:

- Caietele astea nu sînt ale mele. --- The possessed object is not expressed (at least not near the possessor).
- Eroii au murit pentru al patriei viitor. --- The possessed object comes after the possesor (the reversed order, used in poetry, etc.).
- Bunicul pune în ramă o fotografie a nepoţilor. --- No definite article.
- Iar latră cîinii vecinilor. --- The most frequent case, when the possessive article is omitted.

The explanation for this omission is a long story and I don't know it well. Anyway, the possessive article and the definite article have a common ancestor, the Latin illum, illa, etc. Here are some (wrong) examples, where both articles are used together: casa a mea, bărbatul al meu, fetele ale mele, băieţii ai mei. In each case you can see that phonetically the possessive article repeats the definite article.


voron wrote:Dulce-i viaţa! / Sweet life!
What does this "-i" do here? Is it the short form of "el" in dative?

It's the verb a fi: Dulce este viaţa. There are several short forms for this este: e, îi, -i.


voron wrote:Vreau de bine să vă fie! / I wish that you (both) be well!
I don't quite understand the "de" here. Would it sound bad without it? - Vreau să vă fie bine
Do I understand correctly that "vă" is dative here?


There is a difference between să vă fie bine and să vă fie de bine. The former means simply "may you be well", whereas the latter means "may you have good luck, may life be good to you". There are many other meanings occurring in particular cases; see this dictionary entry:
http://www.dictionarromanenglez.ro/dictionar/bine


voron wrote:Să trăiesc! / I will live!
I don't know how to translate the subjunctive here better to English.

I would say "May I live [well]", although it's not clear what the author meant (it's poetry...). My understanding is that the usual phrases Să trăieşti! (approximately "May you live long/well!" or "God bless you!") and Trăiască X! ("Long live X!", for instance Trăiască Regele!, "Long live the King!") were rephrased for the first person. Note that the verb in Trăiască X! is also a subjunctive, where the conjunction was omitted to give it a stronger, more imperative, touch. But this is only possible in the third person, because the indicative and the subjunctive usually have different forms, trăieşte/trăiască, whereas in the first and second persons omitting would lead to ambiguity.
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Re: româneşte - voron

Postby voron » 2009-06-04, 10:56

Thanks AdiJapan!

I indeed didn't quite understand the use of possessive articles from the explanations in the book.

(I have read through Routledge's Essential Grammar for an overview and now I'm reading so oftenly cited here Romanian Grammar from SEELRC website).

I'll sum up what I've understood for the sake of revision:
Whenever I use a possessive pronoun or a noun in genitive, I should accompany it with a possessive article (which agrees with the possessed object), unless its the (most common) case when the possessed object in the definite form is followed by the possessor.

It's the verb a fi: Dulce este viaţa. There are several short forms for this este: e, îi, -i.

I also noticed that Riks used -s in another topic: "nu-s sigur". How would you choose between -i and -s? Routledge's grammar doesn't seem to mention the short forms of "a fi" at all.

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Re: româneşte - voron

Postby AdiJapan » 2009-06-04, 14:21

voron wrote:I'll sum up what I've understood for the sake of revision:
Whenever I use a possessive pronoun or a noun in genitive, I should accompany it with a possessive article (which agrees with the possessed object), unless its the (most common) case when the possessed object in the definite form is followed by the possessor.

That's correct. I would say "followed immediately by the possessor", because if there is any intervening word then you need to use the possessive article: vocea caldă a mamei.

voron wrote:I also noticed that Riks used -s in another topic: "nu-s sigur". How would you choose between -i and -s? Routledge's grammar doesn't seem to mention the short forms of "a fi" at all.

Well, -i is short for este, whereas -s is short for sînt (both eu sînt and ei sînt).

The short forms can only be used after words ending in vowels:

- nu-i bun, ce-i asta, că-i lung, unde-i cartea, fata-i frumoasă
- nu-s buni, ce-s astea, că-s lungi, unde-s cărţile, fetele-s frumoase

Sometimes the preceding word is modified to force it to end in a vowel so as to adapt it to the short forms:

- da-i scump = dar e scump
- io-s acasă = eu sînt acasă

The final asyllabic i in some words becomes a full vowel when -s is appended:

- toţi-s obosiţi --- toţi-s has two syllables, compared with toţi which has one
- mulţi-s bucuroşi --- the same

If the preceding word does not end in a vowel, but you still want to use a short form of sînt, you can use îs. It is limited to colloquial speech and it's more frequent in regional varieties (for instance in Banat). Similarly, the form îi exists for -i, but in this case you can also use e, which is just as short.
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Re: româneşte - voron

Postby voron » 2009-06-04, 14:46

AdiJapan wrote:Well, -i is short for este, whereas -s is short for sînt (both eu sînt and ei sînt).

Sorry I wasn't thinking. :para:

I like your explanations better than the book. :)

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Re: româneşte - voron

Postby AdiJapan » 2009-06-04, 15:25

voron wrote:I like your explanations better than the book. :)

I'm glad I could help. I have very little experience in teaching Romanian as a foreign language.
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Re: româneşte - voron

Postby voron » 2009-06-05, 12:13

Another song I'd like to analyze - Pavel Stratan, Visul.
youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM44eouOhbI

Don't get an idea that I'm going to stick to Moldovan sources only, not at all, it's just that I haven't looked into Romanian pop music yet, and these songs I happen to already know and like.


I hear several dialectical features in the singer's pronunciation, besides those that we already discussed in another topic:
he pronounces visat, vis as jisat, jis
- the auxilary a for 3 p.sg. in compound perfect as o (o dispărut, m-o perdut)
- dar as da
- ci, ce as şi (nişiodată, am inşeput)
- si as (sîngur, sîmţit)

Can these differences, together with some vocabulary differences, actually prevent Romanians from understanding Moldovans at times? The other way is probably easier because of greater exposure of Moldovans to the standard Romanian.

I won't make full translation of the lyrics, I only put in bold those parts which I couldn't understand. (Could you please also check if the diacritics are correct.)

Aseară am visat un vis frumos,
De parcă tata înapoi s-a-ntors.
Dar când am vrut să-l strâng în braţe, să-l cuprind,
A dispărut, dar singur am rămas, plângând.

Ce multe-am vrut să-i spun, dar nu i-am spus,
Ce multe-am vrut să-ntreb, dar n-a răspuns.
Şi-ntr-o secundă am sîmţit atâta rost,
Dar el a dispărut, de parcă nici n-a fost.

Tată, tată, asta-i prima dată
În viaţa mea când cred în ce nu-i drept.
Ştiu că nu-s mitel, şi inţeleg că niciodata
N-ai să te-ntorci, dar te aştept.
Poate alţii te-au uitat demult,
Dar la mama, sora, fratele eu ştiu precis
Că de când te-ai dus de-acasă, uşa
Încă niciodată nu s-a-nchis.

Rău nu-mi pare tata, că vreodată
Şi de mine o să zică cineva că m-a perdut.
Timpu-aşa-i de crud, cu dansu' nimeni
Înca prieten nu s-a facut.
Ştii ce rău îmi pare şi mă doare
Din ce în ce mai tare tata, ştiu
Că am inceput să te iubesc pe urma
Mai tarziu, dar d-amu' era tarziu.

UPD: Amu happens to be a dialectical word for acum.

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Re: româneşte - voron

Postby Lietmotiv » 2009-06-05, 12:23

Vi is pronounced by Moldovans as Ji ;the same rule is for gi . For example , vin(wine) is jin and many Romanians think we talk abiout dry gin.
Yes, o disparut is also a Moldovan form ,but not only . Even in Transilvania they pronounce it this way.
ce,ci become she ,shi.
and i is sometimes pronounced as î

But I don't think Romanians have big problems of understanding how a Moldovan speak (unless he inserts random Russian words). When speaking to Romanians, we never do that,but when two Moldovans speak it's a common thing to use Russian words as well in our sentences.

mitel = little , mic and diminutive mititel in Moldovan became 'mitel'
Din ce in ce= more and more /louder and lauder, it depends on the word which follows this expression.
d'amu = also a Moldovan form for ''de acum''=from now on.

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Re: româneşte - voron

Postby voron » 2009-06-05, 12:37

Thanks Andrei!

AndreiB wrote:ce,ci become she ,shi.

I hear it as щ: niciodată - нищодатэ, ce - щи :)

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Re: româneşte - voron

Postby duko » 2009-06-05, 14:44

AdiJapan wrote:If the preceding word does not end in a vowel, but you still want to use a short form of sînt, you can use îs. It is limited to colloquial speech and it's more frequent in regional varieties (for instance in Banat). Similarly, the form îi exists for -i, but in this case you can also use e, which is just as short.


May I also add that in Banat you would also make the verb reflexive:
Mi-s obosit = I'm tired

Only first person sg. though, idunno why.
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