Unofficial but better?

Moderator:Naava

User avatar
Woods
Posts:950
Joined:2007-11-14, 12:43
Gender:male
Country:FIFinland (Suomi)
Unofficial but better?

Postby Woods » 2022-05-30, 8:27

One of my friends (foreigner) was telling me one of these days not to use the possessive pronouns together with the possessive suffixes, because it wasn't necessary and it "wasn't right to do so." I told him according to the official grammar, that's how it's done; however, I don't think many people speak this way?

For me as a way to both be grammatically correct and not use two particles that have the same function at the same time, I used to prefer to say use the suffix only ("Äidinkieleni on..."), but I don't think that's how most people would do it - they would indeed say "minun äidinkieli", which is not officially grammatically correct, right? And I've had a linguist tell me it was, so I guess it's gradually being accepted as the norm?

But the problem with possessive suffixes, I think, is that they remove number, while if we use the spoken-language grammar of most people, the distinction between singular and plural can stay, and some other suffixes can be more visible as well:

"mun aivot"

So what would you recommend - adopt this feature from the spoken language or stick to the possessive pronoun + suffix?


Is it super cool to be able to speak clean, grammatically correct language straight from the book or is it super artificial and nobody does that?

What features of the spoken language are expected/recommended, and is it the less the better, or it comes down to personal choice, or how does it work?


I also wanted to ask what it sounds like if one says "ei oo" instead of "ei ole" - that's Helsinki dialect or general puhekieli, I guess? I like how it sounds, but I've been corrected, so is it that it sounds bad when I'm speaking that way or is that person too pedantic, or trying to teach me proper Finnish assuming that I'm a foreigner learning and might have mistaken this spoken form for the official one?

I'm usually speaking as close to the written language as I can, but occasionally use shortened forms ("ei oo"; "mut" instead of "mutta")

At the same time, there are other shortened forms that many people seem to use, but I don't like so much ("kympi" instead of "kymmenen", "mun" instead of "minun") - maybe it's because of that - I need to either shorten everything or stick to the written language altogether?

User avatar
Naava
Forum Administrator
Posts:1783
Joined:2012-01-17, 20:24
Country:FIFinland (Suomi)

Re: Unofficial but better?

Postby Naava » 2022-05-30, 10:42

First, you need to remember that there's two types of Finnish: the one that is written (kirjakieli) and the one that is spoken (puhekieli). Neither of them is better or more correct than the other, but both of them have their rules, and if you break those rules, you'll sound wrong. You'll also sound wrong if you use them in the wrong place.

Kirjakieli has a clear set of rules that you can check whenever you need to confirm something. There's not much room for personal preference or region based variation. This is the form you should use when you are writing. If you don't use kirjakieli when writing, you could sound too informal.

Puhekieli has rules, but they've never been written down. They can also change, sometimes rapidly, when people invent new things, test them out, and then decide they sound old-fashioned now... On top of that, puhekieli is tied to the region you're in. It's on a continuum with the local dialect: even people who claim they "don't have a dialect" typically use some forms and words (and avoid using some other forms) that reveal where they are from, or have an accent. For example, inessive marker changes depending on where you are: kirjassa - kirjasa - kirjas. The long unstressed vowels can also reveal your background: do you say valkia, valkea, valkee? Ihmisiä, ihmisii?

Puhekieli is more personal: it shows where you live, where you're from, who you've interacted with, and so on. And because it's on a continuum with dialects, you can choose how much local forms you want to use. You can use lots of local words and grammar, or you can just have a few things here and there that reveal where you're from if someone listens carefully (and knows how Finnish is spoken in different regions. My friend from Tampere has said to me I don't have any accent or anything, but Ostrobothnians in Tampere always spot me immediately.) If you don't use puhekieli when you're speaking, you tend to sound stiff and very formal - or like a foreigner, since non-native speakers are usually taught the kirjakieli.

That being said, let's go to your questions.

For me as a way to both be grammatically correct and not use two particles that have the same function at the same time, I used to prefer to say use the suffix only ("Äidinkieleni on..."), but I don't think that's how most people would do it - they would indeed say "minun äidinkieli", which is not officially grammatically correct, right? And I've had a linguist tell me it was, so I guess it's gradually being accepted as the norm?

Kirjakieli requires you to have the possessive suffix. You can have the pronoun with it or drop it:
- minun äidinkieleni
- äidinkieleni

Dropping the pronoun is often preferred because there isn't usually a need to emphasize the pronoun ("it's MY mother tongue"...).

Puhekieli requires you to use short pronoun (mä) without possessive suffix:
- mun äidinkieli

If you use long form of the pronoun (minä), you add extra emphasis:
- minun äidinkieli = MY mother tongue
- mun äidinkieli = my mother tongue

So, you can use either minun or mun, but the former adds emphasis and the latter is neutral. If you use nothing but "minun", it sounds like you're stressing all the time that this is MINE, MINE, MINE... It will also make you sound like a non-native speaker because that's how they're usually taught to speak. (Disclaimer: there could be regions where "minun" sounds neutral, and there could be contexts where "minun" could sound neutral too. But AFAIK, this rule of emphasis vs neutral works well for someone who's learning to speak Finnish in Helsinki.)

So what would you recommend - adopt this feature from the spoken language or stick to the possessive pronoun + suffix?

Kirjakieli: I recommend you use pronoun + possessive suffix. You can drop the pronoun if you like.
Puhekieli: I recommend you use short form of pronoun + no suffix.

Is it super cool to be able to speak clean, grammatically correct language straight from the book or is it super artificial and nobody does that?

It is artificial and nobody does that, unless they're reading from a paper or in a very formal situation. Like I said above, we don't think either kirjakieli or puhekieli is more clean or more grammatically correct. It's more like winter coats and summer jackets: you use winter coats in winter and summer jackets in summer. Perhaps there are some times where you can use a coat in summer or jacket in winter, but it doesn't mean coats are better than jackets or vice versa. It depends on the situation, not on the piece of clothing.

What features of the spoken language are expected/recommended, and is it the less the better, or it comes down to personal choice, or how does it work?

How you're expected to speak depends on the region, so it's the best if you can listen to the people around you and mimic how they speak. It's also your own choice how much you want it to sound local (e.g. in Helsinki, do you want to call buses dösä or bussi).

However, there are a few things that are kinda universal in puhekieli:

KIRJAKIELI / PUHEKIELI

minä = mä
sinä = sä
hän = se
he = ne
(NB: be careful with se and ne. The rules for when to use se and when to use hän are actually quite complicated and depend on the region, but I'd say a good rule of thumb that you can use at first is to use se/ne with people you'd call ти when talking about people you'd call ти, and use hän/he for everyone else.)

me teemme = me tehdään (me + passive)
me sanomme = me sanotaan
me kävelemme = me kävellään

tulen = mä tuun
menen = mä meen
minä olen = mä oon
sinä olet = sä oot
hän on = se on
me olemme = me ollaan
te olette = te ootte
he ovat = ne on

(IMO you can choose whether you say mä tuun vs mä tulen, mä meen vs mä menen, mä olen vs mä oon, sä olet vs sä oot. You should use me ollaan and te ootte, though.)

-inen = -nen
(e.g. punainen = punanen
millainen = millanen
NB. This does not apply to -lainen: suomalainen = suomalainen)

olla työssä = olla töissä
tehdä työtä = tehdä töitä
(Tbh, you can use töissä/töitä in kirjakieli as well. I'm pointing this out because Finnish textbooks love to teach the learners to use the singular even though nobody uses it anymore.)

yksi = yks
kaksi = kaks
viisi = viis
kuusi = kuus
kahdeksan = kaheksan
yhdeksän = yheksän

I'd say if you add these to your vocabulary, you can otherwise keep using the kirjakieli grammar and vocabulary for now. I don't think it'd make you sound native immediately, but it'll take off some of the stiff and formal sound that using kirjakieli in speech would otherwise give you.

I also wanted to ask what it sounds like if one says "ei oo" instead of "ei ole" - that's Helsinki dialect or general puhekieli, I guess? I like how it sounds, but I've been corrected, so is it that it sounds bad when I'm speaking that way or is that person too pedantic, or trying to teach me proper Finnish assuming that I'm a foreigner learning and might have mistaken this spoken form for the official one?

I think you're right: if you've been using kirjakieli and then suddenly say "ei oo" (=puhekieli), people might assume you're trying to keep your speech 100% kirjakieli and made a mistake. Foreigners are typically taught to speak in kirjakieli, and it's important you don't mix puhekieli into kirjakieli, so I can see why people would try to correct you.

Ei oo is one of those universal features of puhekieli that you'll hear everywhere in Finland. You can keep using it if you like.

I'm usually speaking as close to the written language as I can, but occasionally use shortened forms ("ei oo"; "mut" instead of "mutta")

Shortened forms are extremely common in Helsinki. It's a good idea to use them!

At the same time, there are other shortened forms that many people seem to use, but I don't like so much ("kympi" instead of "kymmenen", "mun" instead of "minun") - maybe it's because of that - I need to either shorten everything or stick to the written language altogether?

(Small correction: kymppi.)

Kymppi is not the same as kymmenen. Kymmenen = when you tell how many X there are. Kymmenen bussia, kymmenen sanaa, kymmenen taloa.

Kymppi = when you refer to the number 10. This is common e.g. when you refer to money (10 e = kymppi), bus lines (which bus takes me to the centre? Kymppi), and grades in school (I'm in the 7th grade = oon seiskalla). We have these forms for all numbers:

Ykkönen, kakkonen, kolmonen, nelonen, vitonen (viitonen), kutonen (kuutonen), seiska, kasi, ysi, kymppi.

In kirjakieli, they are:
Ykkönen, kakkonen, kolmonen, nelonen, viitonen, kuutonen, seitsemän (seitsemäinen), kahdeksan (kahdeksikko, kahdeksainen), yhdeksän (yhdeksikkö, yhdeksäinen), kymmenen.

I need to either shorten everything or stick to the written language altogether?

You can start with the list I gave above. It should serve you well until you've learnt the language to a point where you can make your own decisions yourself; that is, when you know what options you have and what kind of difference they make, how much they're used and who'd use them, how formal or informal you'd sound, and so on.

I hope this helps! If there's anything you didn't quite get, just ask and I'll try to explain better. :)

User avatar
Virankannos
Posts:180
Joined:2008-07-08, 10:07
Gender:male
Location:Ostrobothnia Septentrionalis
Country:FIFinland (Suomi)

Re: Unofficial but better?

Postby Virankannos » 2022-06-03, 13:18

Just a few additions to Naava's otherwise excellent and thorough rundown.

In my mind, it's a common misconception that possessive suffixes should always be dropped in spoken language. While it is true that 1st person suffixes are rarely heard in normal spoken communication, 2nd (and 3rd) person suffixes sound quite natural even in informal speech in certain contexts. For example, one can use the 2nd person singular suffix to respond to something the other said with the (childish) quip/retort: Äitis oli (kun sua teki) 'Your mom was (when she was making you)' or in commands (e.g. Vie kamas pois täältä 'Take your stuff away from here'). Also, the reflexive pronoun itse ~ itte ~ ihte (depending on the dialect) still sounds very unnatural without a possessive suffix, especially when used as a direct object: Mä näin itteni (itten) peilistä 'I saw myself in the mirror'; Oot(ko) sä tyytyväinen ittees (~ ?itteen) 'Are you happy/content with yourself?'.

Another feature of spoken language is that 3rd person possessive suffixes are in the process of being generalized to all persons especially in adverbials (e.g. one can hear expressions such as Mä olin innoissaan siitä 'I was excited about it' or Sä teit sen tahallaan! 'You did it on purpose!' instead of innoissani, tahallasi)

The rules of colloquial Finnish has been studied quite a lot and there's even a textbook for L2 learners. I haven't taken a look at that book, but I assume it covers the spoken variant often called yleispuhekieli which contains features that are (almost) ubiquitous in Finland. Of course, as Naava pointed out, there's still regional variation that is tied to the older local dialects, but thanks to mass media, TV, internet and such, certain morphological and syntactic features have become popular almost everywhere.

User avatar
Naava
Forum Administrator
Posts:1783
Joined:2012-01-17, 20:24
Country:FIFinland (Suomi)

Re: Unofficial but better?

Postby Naava » 2022-06-03, 14:48

Virankannos wrote:In my mind, it's a common misconception that possessive suffixes should always be dropped in spoken language.

Yes, you're right! I left that out because I felt it could take me down a big rabbit hole of explanations and rules of when you would have a possessive suffix and when you wouldn't. But that itse ~ itte ~ ihte was a very good point that I hadn't thought of!

Virankannos wrote:Äitis oli (kun sua teki) 'Your mom was (when she was making you)'

A side note, but I've learnt this one as isäs oli ku sua teki (your dad was). For some reason, I can't remember I'd ever heard the mum version. I wonder why. :hmm:

Virankannos wrote:The rules of colloquial Finnish has been studied quite a lot and there's even a textbook for L2 learners. I haven't taken a look at that book, but I assume it covers the spoken variant often called yleispuhekieli which contains features that are (almost) ubiquitous in Finland. Of course, as Naava pointed out, there's still regional variation that is tied to the older local dialects, but thanks to mass media, TV, internet and such, certain morphological and syntactic features have become popular almost everywhere.

(First of all, I just want to clarify that when I said the rules have not been written down, I didn't mean they wouldn't have been studied. Like Virankannos said, there are indeed studies on the way Finns speak! :) My point was more along the line of "there isn't a rule book where you can check what is correct and what is not".)

You're right there's textbooks aimed at L2 learners, though. I meant to recommend them to Woods myself but completely forgot, so thanks for the addition! :D I'm not familiar with the book you linked, but based on the sample pages, it seems to be pretty decent. In my experience, many textbooks like these tend to teach the Southern/capital area spoken language (which is perfect for Woods) rather than yleispuhekieli. It seems this one has some features I'd associate with people from the South, too*, but I think they've done a good job with how they've shown the variation that exists in words and suffixes and I love how they teach you to use the short words like ai, no, and niin! Nice book, thanks for sharing it with us! 👍

* F.ex. more shortenings than I'm used to as someone who doesn't live anywhere near South.


Return to “Finnish (Suomi)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests