Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

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Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Woods » 2021-06-15, 10:02

Jos teen itselleni luettelo eri luokkien sanoista, niin kuin esimerkiksi:


Animals:
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Sports:
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Clothes:
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pitäisi minun kirjoittaa nämä termit partitiivissa yksikössä vai partitiivissa monikossa?


Eläintä:
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Urheilua:
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Vaatetta:
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tai


Eläimiä:
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Urheiluja:
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-
Vaateita:
-
-

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Naava » 2021-06-15, 14:46

Monikon partitiivissa tai nominatiivissa. Eli:

Eläimiä:
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Urheilulajeja:
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Vaatteita:
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TAI

Eläimet:
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Urheilulajit:
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Vaatteet:
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(Huomaa, että sports kannattaa tässä tapauksessa kääntää urheilulaji ja että vaate-sanan vahva vartalo on vaattee-, ei vaate-: yksikössä vaate & vaatetta, mutta monikossa vaatteet & vaatteita.)

Nominatiivi antaa sellaisen mielikuvan, että lista on "täydellinen" eli siitä ei puutu mitään. Partitiivi kuulostaa siltä, että listassa on vain muutamia esimerkkejä.

Jos teet itsellesi listan suomen kielen sanoista, voit käyttää joko nominatiivia (=listassa on kaikki sanat, mitkä sinä olet oppinut, tai kaikki sanat, mitkä olet halunnut lajitella) tai partitiivia (=listassa on vain osa kaikista suomen kielen eläimistä, vaatteista ja urheilulajeista).

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Woods » 2021-06-16, 14:26

Kiitos perinpohjaisesta sellityksestä!

Nyt opiskelin myös, että täytyy sanoa erilaisia "urheilulajeja", en tietänyt sitä!

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Woods » 2023-04-26, 11:45

Woods wrote:Jos teen itselleni luettelo eri luokkien sanoista (...) pitäisi minun kirjoittaa nämä termit partitiivissa yksikössä vai partitiivissa monikossa?

Naava wrote:Monikon partitiivissa tai nominatiivissa.

Btw how does that relate to abstract/uncountable nouns (such as "aika" etc.)? I am wondering if I should list the categories for those in nominative singular or partitive singular.

I chose partitive plural for the ones mentioned above, as the nominative would imply that the list is complete, as far as I know. So if some of those categories refer to abstract concepts and not countable entities, should I use the partitive singular this time to keep the partitive throughout, or is the partitive unnecessary or inappropriate since as you can't count the nouns, you also don't need to mention that you're referring to only a certain amount of it?

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Naava » 2023-04-28, 12:42

Woods wrote:Btw how does that relate to abstract/uncountable nouns (such as "aika" etc.)? I am wondering if I should list the categories for those in nominative singular or partitive singular.

Could you give me an example of such a list? I'm struggling to think of a category that would be an abstract noun and have items listed underneath it. (For example, aika, which you mentioned, is countable in Finnish. You could always add "sanoja" to the end if you prefer that, e.g. "aikasanoja".)

I chose partitive plural for the ones mentioned above, as the nominative would imply that the list is complete, as far as I know.

It depends. Partitive plural clearly signals that the list is not complete. Nominative could mean "a complete list of all the words that exist" or "a complete list of the words I've chosen to add here", so the list could still be technically incomplete even if you used nominative. :) But it's true that partitive is less ambiguous here.

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Woods » 2023-05-08, 9:41

Naava wrote:
Woods wrote:Btw how does that relate to abstract/uncountable nouns (such as "aika" etc.)? I am wondering if I should list the categories for those in nominative singular or partitive singular.

Could you give me an example of such a list? I'm struggling to think of a category that would be an abstract noun and have items listed underneath it. (For example, aika, which you mentioned, is countable in Finnish. You could always add "sanoja" to the end if you prefer that, e.g. "aikasanoja".)

Well, for example "Aika", but not as the countable idea of how many times something has happened, but as the concept of time. And then under it I list concepts and phrases relating to time:

olen siellä kahdessa päivässä
hän täyttää 35 vuotta



or Sää (/Säätä? 🤔)

lumi
pilvi
Sää on kauhea.

jne.


Naava wrote:
Woods wrote:I chose partitive plural for the ones mentioned above, as the nominative would imply that the list is complete, as far as I know.

It depends. Partitive plural clearly signals that the list is not complete. Nominative could mean "a complete list of all the words that exist" or "a complete list of the words I've chosen to add here", so the list could still be technically incomplete even if you used nominative. :) But it's true that partitive is less ambiguous here.

Btw why do websites list categories as "polkupyörän varaosat" and not "varaosia" if they're not talking about a complete set of all the parts of something or all possible spare parts there are? Is that awkward machine translation or do they mean "a complete list of all the parts we have" like you mentioned?

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Naava » 2023-05-08, 20:53

Woods wrote:Well, for example "Aika", but not as the countable idea of how many times something has happened, but as the concept of time. And then under it I list concepts and phrases relating to time:

olen siellä kahdessa päivässä
hän täyttää 35 vuotta

For your examples, you could use "ajanilmaukset" (ilmaus = expression).

(Aika can also be countable if you're talking about certain periods of time. E.g. vuosi, viisi minuuttia, huominen are all aikoja.)

or Sää (/Säätä? 🤔)

lumi
pilvi
Sää on kauhea.

jne.

Sääsanat or sääsanasto? (Note that sää is also countable in Finnish, but I wouldn't use it here because snow or cloud is not a type of weather.)

Woods wrote:Btw why do websites list categories as "polkupyörän varaosat" and not "varaosia" if they're not talking about a complete set of all the parts of something or all possible spare parts there are? Is that awkward machine translation or do they mean "a complete list of all the parts we have" like you mentioned?

Yes, they've listed everything they're selling (or in some cases, everything they're selling online) so the list is complete. If they were selling "varaosia", it'd sound to me like they had some random samples of them and not a proper selection, which is not a mental image you'd want to give to your customers.

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Woods » 2023-05-09, 7:32

Naava wrote:
Woods wrote:Well, for example "Aika", but not as the countable idea of how many times something has happened, but as the concept of time. And then under it I list concepts and phrases relating to time:

olen siellä kahdessa päivässä
hän täyttää 35 vuotta

For your examples, you could use "ajanilmaukset" (ilmaus = expression).

(Aika can also be countable if you're talking about certain periods of time. E.g. vuosi, viisi minuuttia, huominen are all aikoja.)

or Sää (/Säätä? 🤔)

lumi
pilvi
Sää on kauhea.

jne.

Sääsanat or sääsanasto?

Thanks! But if the whole thing is already called Sanasto, I just want to call the subsections with one simple word each, the smallest meaning-bearing one possible - does Aika/Aikaa and Sää/Säätä not work?


Naava wrote:I wouldn't use it here because snow or cloud is not a type of weather.)

You mean the snow and the clouds are not part of the elements that make up a certain type of weather? 🤔

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Naava » 2023-05-09, 12:58

Woods wrote:Thanks! But if the whole thing is already called Sanasto, I just want to call the subsections with one simple word each, the smallest meaning-bearing one possible - does Aika/Aikaa and Sää/Säätä not work?

Sanasto means "a collection of words", so you could very well have a bigger sanasto comprised of smaller, more specific sanasto-s. But if you really want to avoid repeating the word, you could just write "aika" and "sää" or "aikasanat" (or aikasanoja) and "sääsanat" (or sääsanoja). I wouldn't put aika/sää in partitive, though.


I wouldn't use it here because snow or cloud is not a type of weather.)

You mean the snow and the clouds are not part of the elements that make up a certain type of weather? 🤔

They are, but they are not a type of weather themselves; just like you wouldn't say "a paw" is a type of dog. It's certainly part of the animal, but not the whole thing.

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Woods » 2023-05-09, 14:59

Naava wrote:But if you really want to avoid repeating the word, you could just write "aika" and "sää" or "aikasanat" (or aikasanoja) and "sääsanat" (or sääsanoja). I wouldn't put aika/sää in partitive, though.

Thanks, that's what I was wondering!

It wouldn't look too strange/non-native, would it?

I've noticed Finns have far less of an issue with repetition compared with speakers of other languages: something like minä kysyn kysymyksen would be completely unacceptable in Bulgarian, French or English for example. So from there, even sääsanoja sounds unfit to me to use in a category called sanasto, since that word itself is made of sana?

Has it got something to do with speakers of agglutinative languages always trying to be as exact as possible, while us trying to reduce the number of morphemes we combine to a minimum?


Naava wrote:
Woods wrote:
Naava wrote:I wouldn't use it here because snow or cloud is not a type of weather.)

You mean the snow and the clouds are not part of the elements that make up a certain type of weather? 🤔

They are, but they are not a type of weather themselves; just like you wouldn't say "a paw" is a type of dog. It's certainly part of the animal, but not the whole thing.

Well okay, but that's not a language question - more like a logical one, to me it makes sense to put them there while to you it doesn't, I guess:

Naava wrote:just like you wouldn't say "a paw" is a type of dog.

I wouldn't, but if I don't have a category called "animal body parts" I might as well put it under "pets" or "animals".

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Linguaphile » 2023-05-11, 20:22

Woods wrote:
Naava wrote:But if you really want to avoid repeating the word, you could just write "aika" and "sää" or "aikasanat" (or aikasanoja) and "sääsanat" (or sääsanoja). I wouldn't put aika/sää in partitive, though.

Thanks, that's what I was wondering!

It wouldn't look too strange/non-native, would it?

I've noticed Finns have far less of an issue with repetition compared with speakers of other languages: something like minä kysyn kysymyksen would be completely unacceptable in Bulgarian, French or English for example. So from there, even sääsanoja sounds unfit to me to use in a category called sanasto, since that word itself is made of sana?

Has it got something to do with speakers of agglutinative languages always trying to be as exact as possible, while us trying to reduce the number of morphemes we combine to a minimum?

A fluent Finnish speaker can answer more definitively than I can, but since you're asking in general terms here about agglutinative versus isolating, I'll jump in. If it were Estonian, the partial repetition of sääsanoja and sanasto (in Estonian, ilmasõnad and sõnastik, both derived from sõna in exactly the same way that the Finnish words are derived from sana) wouldn't sound odd at all and certainly not non-native (tbh I would not even consider it "repetition", I wouldn't notice it that way), nor would minä kysyn kysymyksen (mina küsin küsimuse). But I wouldn't even say it's "completely unacceptable" to do that sort of thing in English, either, we just don't happen to do it with the word "question/kysymys/küsimus" specifically. We say things like "would you dance this dance with me?" and "I don't want to name names" and "I've been waiting in the waiting room for over an hour", "he talks the talk, but does he walk the walk?" and so on. So no, I don't think this is about trying to somehow be more exact, or something unique to Finnish, or Uralic languages, or agglutinative languages. It happens in a lot of languages. I think to fluent speakers, it's often barely noticeable when it happens. That might be why you don't notice it as much in languages like English and French, in which you are more fluent, while it seems more noticeable to you in languages you know less well, like Finnish.

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Woods » 2023-05-12, 6:21

Linguaphile wrote:We say things like "would you dance this dance with me?" and "I don't want to name names" and "I've been waiting in the waiting room for over an hour", "he talks the talk, but does he walk the walk?" and so on.

I haven't heard any of those and I'd just say "would you dance with me," "I don't want to mention names" and "I've been in the waiting room for over an hour;" unless I want to seriously emphasise something - which could be the case with the last sentence.

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Linguaphile » 2023-05-12, 14:19

Woods wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:We say things like "would you dance this dance with me?" and "I don't want to name names" and "I've been waiting in the waiting room for over an hour", "he talks the talk, but does he walk the walk?" and so on.

I haven't heard any of those and I'd just say "would you dance with me," "I don't want to mention names" and "I've been in the waiting room for over an hour;" unless I want to seriously emphasise something - which could be the case with the last sentence.

Okay, but the point I was trying to make is that they don't sound unacceptable to native speakers, which you had claimed ("something like minä kysyn kysymyksen would be completely unacceptable in Bulgarian, French or English for example"). I tried googling to get a feel for frequency and I think that's ineffective in terms of numbers of hits because it turns out the phrase "dance a dance" is in several song lyrics (inflating the google hits with lyrics sites) and "try to dance this dance" is a tiktok challenge of some sort, but I guess that makes the point as well: English speakers use phrases like this. "To name names" even has its own entry in most dictionaries, like Merriam-Webster, Oxford and Wiktionary, and in terms of commonly-used repetitive phrases I'd say it's pretty comparable to "kysyä kysymyksiä" (both use a single root first as a verb and then as a noun, with nothing in between them). So, to return to the original point, it's neither unacceptable nor something unique to agglutinative languages.

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Woods » 2023-05-15, 16:37

Linguaphile wrote:Okay, but the point I was trying to make is that they don't sound unacceptable to native speakers, which you had claimed ("something like minä kysyn kysymyksen would be completely unacceptable in Bulgarian, French or English for example").

Of course you could find a context where they would be acceptable, but still - does the phrase "I've been waiting in the waiting room" sound normal and well-made to you, unless the speaker is trying to emphasise both how much he has waited and that it happened in the waiting room, and he has to mention it in order to avoid any confusion, thinking that the listener will likely assume he waited somewhere else?


Linguaphile wrote:"To name names" even has its own entry in most dictionaries

These are idiomatic expressions I guess, so they are a case apart but it still sounds tasteless to me.*


Linguaphile wrote:We say things like "would you dance this dance with me?"

Same as with the waiting room - I'd imagine the person asking finds this one dance to be a very particular one and for him it's very important she says yes to this and not the next one; or she rejected him last time he asked and now he's asking again - something different to him just casually going and asking someone if she would dance with him, in which case making that repetition would seem very unnatural to me.


* By the way "to mention names" is fine and idiomatic too, isn't it?

"To name names" sounds somewhere between emphatic, ironic and childish to me.

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Linguaphile » 2023-05-15, 17:55

Woods wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Okay, but the point I was trying to make is that they don't sound unacceptable to native speakers, which you had claimed ("something like minä kysyn kysymyksen would be completely unacceptable in Bulgarian, French or English for example").

Of course you could find a context where they would be acceptable, but still - does the phrase "I've been waiting in the waiting room" sound normal and well-made to you, unless the speaker is trying to emphasise both how much he has waited and that it happened in the waiting room, and he has to mention it in order to avoid any confusion, thinking that the listener will likely assume he waited somewhere else?


Linguaphile wrote:"To name names" even has its own entry in most dictionaries

These are idiomatic expressions I guess, so they are a case apart but it still sounds tasteless to me.*


Linguaphile wrote:We say things like "would you dance this dance with me?"

Same as with the waiting room - I'd imagine the person asking finds this one dance to be a very particular one and for him it's very important she says yes to this and not the next one; or she rejected him last time he asked and now he's asking again - something different to him just casually going and asking someone if she would dance with him, in which case making that repetition would seem very unnatural to me.


* By the way "to mention names" is fine and idiomatic too, isn't it?

"To name names" sounds somewhere between emphatic, ironic and childish to me.

For "to mention names", sure, you can say that. I think "to name names" is just as common, if not more so (and not "childish" nor "tasteless", just normal speech), but both phrases are acceptable. As for whether either phrase is used throughout the entire English-speaking world, I have no idea. "To name names" is common where I live.
I've already answered your other questions. I'm not sure what your point is with continuing to repeat that these phrases sound unnatural to you. It's fine if they sound unnatural to you. They don't sound unnatural to me. We don't need to convince each other to think differently (and won't, I'm sure). I didn't bring them up to convince you that they should sound natural to you, just to explain that, as a native English speaker, they sound quite natural to me, just as "kysyn kysymyksen" sounds natural in Finnish. This is a Finnish forum, and that was my only point: they are examples of how native speakers like me use this type of repetition in English too, it's not unique to Finnish or agglutinative languages. We could go back and forth forever defending our positions on how the phrases sound to us as individuals, but I see no point in doing so and it wasn't the point I was trying to make either. I think it's time to move on, or at least I've made my contribution and I'm moving on; if you want to continue this discussion without me, be my guest.

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Woods » 2023-05-15, 22:02

Linguaphile wrote:I'm not sure what your point is with continuing to repeat that these phrases sound unnatural to you.

What else could the point be besides discussing for as long as there is something interesting or seen differently by two people? Or you want whenever you say something for everyone to fully start seeing it the way you do, have no more questions and no longer have a perception and point of view of his own?

I'm seriously starting to ask myself what kind of people I'm chatting with - I've never seen you in person, you seem quite knowledgeable, well-meaning, but at the same time when I see the tone in your messages, I imagine someone who constantly feels misunderstood, permanently argues with someone and always tries to prove something. This is just the impression I get from the tone of what I'm reading - I might be wrong.

If I didn’t like your contribution or found what you wrote uninteresting, I wouldn't have answered. But if after every piece of meaningful information comes some kind of assumption, most of the times a negative one, and a quarrel, it becomes rather unappealing to come by. I can also learn stuff from books - you can't ask them questions, but at least they don't fight!

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Re: Kuinka kutsua sanaluokat sanastossa?

Postby Woods » 2023-05-16, 20:22

Linguaphile wrote:As far as your quote that you think I want "for everyone to fully start seeing it the way I do, have no more questions and no longer have a perception and point of view of his own", my reason for not wanting to continue the discussion was actually the opposite of that

I don't understand.


Linguaphile wrote: [quote missing because Linguaphile deleted her post before I could finish my reply (something along the lines of "you called my phrases childlike")]

Something you say can sound "childlike" etc. to me without offence to you, that's just a matter of fact and as far as I'm concerned we're simply discussing English - I don't see why you'd take offence at that.


Linguaphile wrote:We don't need to convince each other to think differently

I agree.


Linguaphile wrote:But it seemed to me like you were just trying to get me to agree (or argue?)

No, never. I don't do that. Any suggestions how I could have continued discussing those three expressions without making you feel that way?

Sometimes I have tried to convince when I've thought the other forum member hasn't gotten my point (e.g. when we were talking about whether languages should butcher foreign loans or keep the foreign spelling), but in this particular case I've only continued to talk to clarify the meaning and hear more about how those expressions sound to you, through informing you how they still sound to me.


Linguaphile wrote:You dismissed my examples as irrelevant

Your examples are not irrelevant - especially when you're talking about your language, they're very interesting and appreciated. Your point is also interesting, but mine needs to continue to exist until all aspects of it are considered. You completely ignored the main point in my last post and focused on something else - it was a question: don't you think dance this dance with me implies extra emphasis and something out of the ordinary, while normally an English speaking would prefer to skip the repetition? Maybe you answered halfway, but you focused on something else (and thought I was criticising your way of speaking, which hasn't even come to my mind).


Linguaphile wrote:and then went right back to asking me if my own phrases "sound normal and well-made" to me.

Those were mentioned as examples of what "people say" and not as your phrases and the way you speak. It keeps looking like you are trying to accuse me of all things, telling me how everything I've said about you could've been seen as an attack.


Linguaphile wrote:I would love to discuss Finnish here, or compare Finnish and English structures, but somehow we've moved off of that - I kept trying to connect the discussion back to Finnish

I don't think anyone here would have a problem with some discussion about English in the Finnish forum, as long as it originated in a post about Finnish - most of us are as interested in English as we are in Finnish.* However, our personal quarrels aren't of interest to anybody (or shouldn't be!)


Linguaphile wrote:the sort of thing that can't really have a resolution or endpoint aside from "let's just agree to disagree"

I never thought there was an argument in the first place! Until you told me you thought there was and from there the discussion shifted into something super long and complicated and completely unrelated to the topic.


Linguaphile wrote:we could analyze whether Finnish uses repetition like this all that often; in my experience, Finnish is just as likely to use parallelism where a synonym or near-synonym rather than the same stem is used, although with that I'm thinking more of poetry than ordinary speech (and it does tend to change the meaning, which is why it works best in the figurative language of poetry where we can be a bit looser with literal meanings).

Could you be more specific or give examples?


*btw comparisons with Estonian are also welcome and interesting. (I believe for everyone else here as well).


Linguaphile wrote: [quote missing because Linguaphile deleted her post before I could finish my reply]

Good, from now on I'm using Minä esitän kysymyksen all the time, thank you very much! 😁

(Naava, what do you think - is that too formal?


Linguaphile wrote:is acceptable, so is changing it, if the repetition bothers you. On the other hand if you're changing these phrases because you think it bothers the listener, that's when I wouldn't worry

The point here is to make my speech as good as possible, so whether it bothers me or the listener is irrelevant. All kinds of people say all kinds of things - I need to make my pick.


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