Ristiriidat Kred Karlssonin kieliopissa

Moderator: Naava

User avatar
Woods
Posts: 403
Joined: 2007-11-14, 12:43
Gender: male
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Ristiriidat Kred Karlssonin kieliopissa

Postby Woods » 2018-12-09, 18:16

Terve!

Olen takaisin Suomessa, opiskelemassa suomen kielessä :) Keskityn opiskelun ja siksi en kysy paljon kysymyksiä. Tällä kertaa kirjoitan taas ristiriidoista Kred Karlssonin kieliopin ja todellisuuden.

Hän kirjoittaa:

“The structure of the essive is such that it does not cause consonant gradation.”

Kuitenkin, hän antaa seuraavan esimerkin:

Pysyykö ilma kirkkaana?

Kirkkaana on siellä essiivi (form?) sanasta kirkas, ja siellä on astevaihtelu.

Ehkä on jotain ilmeinen logiikka sen takana, mutta en näe sen :)

User avatar
Naava
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 1045
Joined: 2012-01-17, 20:24
Gender: female
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Ristiriidat Kred Karlssonin kieliopissa

Postby Naava » 2018-12-09, 19:18

Tervetuloa takaisin Suomeen!

Arvelisin, että tässä tapauksessa Karlsson tarkoittaa astevaihtelulla sitä, että vahva aste muuttuu heikoksi asteeksi. Koska essiiviä käytettäessä sana on aina vahvassa asteessa, astevaihtelua ei voi havaita.

Vertaa esimerkiksi sanoja pata ja auto: jos näkisit niitten essiivimuodot patana ja autona, et voisi mistään päätellä, että sanalla pata on heikko aste pada-, mutta sanalla auto heikkoa astetta ei ole. Sen sijaan sijamuodoista, joissa astevaihtelu ilmenee, ero on helppo huomata: esimerkiksi genetiivissä padan vs auton tai inessiivissä padassa vs autossa.

Mats Norberg
Posts: 40
Joined: 2018-08-26, 16:06

Re: Ristiriidat Kred Karlssonin kieliopissa

Postby Mats Norberg » 2018-12-09, 20:58

The most common stem for kirkas is strong (kirkkaa-) as for other consonant stem words. Transition to weak grade occurs in only two forms: nominative and partitive singular. So no transition for essive.

User avatar
Woods
Posts: 403
Joined: 2007-11-14, 12:43
Gender: male
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Ristiriidat Kred Karlssonin kieliopissa

Postby Woods » 2018-12-10, 16:44

Hey, me writing Finnish does not mean I understand Finnish :D

Okay, let me try to decipher it...

(will write back soon)

Btw did I do a good job with the language? :D

Thanks for the warm welcome :)

User avatar
Naava
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 1045
Joined: 2012-01-17, 20:24
Gender: female
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Ristiriidat Kred Karlssonin kieliopissa

Postby Naava » 2018-12-31, 11:22

Woods wrote:Hey, me writing Finnish does not mean I understand Finnish :D

Sorry, I did not know. :) Usually people write in the language they want the answer to be in, so I assumed that's the case here, too.

(And sorry#2 for late translation, Christmas has been busy time for me!)

I believe that consonant gradation in this case means "the process where strong grade changes into weak grade". Because the essive usually has a strong grade, there's no consonant gradation (=change into a weak grade).

Strong grade forms aren't very helpful in determining if a word takes part in consonant gradation or not. For example, if you only had the essive forms patana (pot) and autona (car), you wouldn't be able to tell that pata has a weak grade stem pada- but auto has only a strong grade stem auto-. But with cases that cause consonant gradation, you can see the weak grade (or its lack): eg. genitive padan vs. auton or inessive padassa vs autossa. I think this is why Karlsson uses the term 'consonant gradation' to refer to change from strong to weak grade.

Woods wrote:Pysyykö ilma kirkkaana?

Kirkkaana on siellä essiivi (form?) sanasta kirkas, ja siellä on astevaihtelu.

So, there's no consonant gradation in essive kirkkaana because that's the strong grade (kirkkaa-). There is consonant gradation in nominative kirkas, which is in weak grade.

FYI: The consonant gradation is not tied to cases but to syllables. In open syllables, you get a strong grade, and in closed syllables, you get a weak grade. This doesn't work 100% perfectly because some syllables have merged (eg. illative) but it explains why nominative can have both weak and strong grade, depending on the word.

And by the way, with words that are in weak grade in nominative, you can get weak grade essives: kirkasna. However, these tend to be less used than strong grade essives (kirkkaana).

User avatar
Woods
Posts: 403
Joined: 2007-11-14, 12:43
Gender: male
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Ristiriidat Kred Karlssonin kieliopissa

Postby Woods » 2019-01-10, 14:02

Naava wrote:
Woods wrote:Hey, me writing Finnish does not mean I understand Finnish :D

Sorry, I did not know. :) Usually people write in the language they want the answer to be in, so I assumed that's the case here, too.

Well, I felt more like an urge to see if I would be able to write it in Finnish :)

I kind of understandood what you wrote with the help of dictionaries, but in English it's much more clear. You can write in either - if it's in Finnish I will understand much less, but there'll be something I can look back into after a while :)

I guess English is better so far ;)

Corrections on the other hand would be much appreciated :)


Return to “Finnish (Suomi)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest