Is this word of Arabic origin?

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Brzeczyszczykiewicz
Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby Brzeczyszczykiewicz » 2020-04-23, 6:40

Well, I just had one of those delightful moments when you spot a certain word in X language and something about it makes you feel almost sure it's not a native one, and what's more, you feel you know exactly where it comes from.

But then it gets less and less delightful, and more and more tantalizing... :para: ...until you get confirmation of some sort, naturally.

And that's precisely what I seek here. The word? "кайф"! According to my beloved Kovalev, it's a slang term for "pleasure" or "whim", and having recently come across Hebrew "כיף" (another slangy word meaning "fun" or "pleasure" and pronounced "kef") which is definitely of Arabic origin, I can't shake off the feeling this one may just have the same roots.
Could anyone be kind enough to either confirm or refute this?

Cheers :)

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Re: Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby Saim » 2020-04-23, 6:54

Yes, in Arabic it's كيف (kayf), which can mean condition, pleasure or the euphoria caused by opium.

I don't think the Russian word was borrowed from Hebrew, it probably came directly from Arabic, or alternatively one of the Turkic languages.

It also exists in Serbian (ćef), Turkish (keyif) and Urdu (کیف kaif). I'd wager it's been borrowed by many other languages of the Islamic world and neighbouring regions.

Brzeczyszczykiewicz

Re: Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby Brzeczyszczykiewicz » 2020-04-24, 2:08

Thank you very much, I knew it had to be Arabic "كي"!
I didn't know Turkish had it, too, but that's hardly surprising, I was just a tiny bit more surprised to find it in German and Dutch, as well, and when I wrote my original post I completely forgot that French also liked it enough to add it to its own vocabulary.

Now to see if the Chechens share that love...which I bet they do. 8-)

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Re: Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby aspirantMaster » 2023-10-07, 22:24

You suggest there's a German cognate of Arabic كَيْف.
Which one precisely?
I'm not aware of any homophonic or quasi-homophonic German noun, let alone synonym.

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Re: Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby OiJoua » 2023-10-07, 23:27

aspirantMaster wrote:You suggest there's a German cognate of Arabic كَيْف.
Which one precisely?
I'm not aware of any homophonic or quasi-homophonic German noun, let alone synonym.

I don't know which word Brzeczyszczykiewicz had in mind, but there is Kif, Kiffer, and the verb kiffen.

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Re: Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby aspirantMaster » 2023-10-08, 18:26

Of course, German has the noun 'Kiffer' and the verb 'kiffen'.
(Note though that these terms are not universally accepted. Rather they are specific terms widely used in some social groups while ignored in others, probably even a majority of adult citizens. There are other ways in German to express their semantics.)

None of them is near to a synonym or homophone of Arabic كَيْف, meaning will, mood, condition; pleasure, ecstasy, euphoria caused by intoxicants (cannabis) etc.

They do share the stem 'kif'. Etymologically, this may well be derived from Arabic كَيْف with its primary grapheme sequence  ك - ي - ف (other graphemes ignored, e.g. vowel signs). However, the articulatory difference between 'kif' and كَيْف is considerable, regarding vowels.
On the other hand, 'Kiffer' has suffix 'er' while 'kiffen' has suffix 'en', which is typical for German nouns and verbs, respectively.

Thus to say that German 'has كَيْف' is something of an exaggeration, maybe due to an enthusiasm about the whole topic. In particular, German essentially has not 'Kif' or 'Kiff'. It would be a straight and direct relationship if it had.

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Re: Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby OiJoua » 2023-10-08, 19:41

aspirantMaster wrote:However, the articulatory difference between 'kif' and كَيْف is considerable, regarding vowels.

You're forgetting about Arabic dialects. English got this word from Moroccan Arabic and German got it from Moroccan Arabic too via English. In Moroccan and Palestinian Arabic it's kīf كيف‎ not kayf. Pronounciation and usage much closer to German Kif. You can see here what كيف mean in Moroccan Arabic and how it's more similar to the German meaning and pronounciation.

aspirantMaster wrote:On the other hand, 'Kiffer' has suffix 'er' while 'kiffen' has suffix 'en', which is typical for German nouns and verbs, respectively.

Yes, this fact is obvious, so I don't understand the reference. (?)

aspirantMaster wrote:Thus to say that German 'has كَيْف' is something of an exaggeration

Where was it said, that German 'has كَيْف' ? Or that all Germans use the word Kif? It was said, that these words in Russian, Arabic, Turkish, German, French etc are cognates, from common roots. That's not an exaggeration.

aspirantMaster wrote:In particular, German essentially has not 'Kif' or 'Kiff'. It would be a straight and direct relationship if it had.

I don't understand what this means, but German has the word Kif and cognates are rarely "straight and direct relationships", if you mean by this the exact same pronounciation and the range of meaning as the original language. Anyway, Arabic pronounciation isn't even the same in different Arabic-speaking countries.

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Re: Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby aspirantMaster » 2023-10-10, 13:03

'Kif(f)' ? No. Even if sources like Duden make such claims.
Well accepted synonyms are 'Gras', 'Haschisch', 'Cannabis', 'Marihuana'.

(Of course, every community in a given society can define its own terms, use it and later claim it's part of the society's language. I can define 'Ifk' a term, use it in Germany and claim it's German.)

For example, the gender movement likes asterisks. Still Jack and Jones never use asterisks. As of today, to say that asterisk within a word is German is an exaggeration, even if overly politically correct groups tend to use such language. These are merely precedents — or trial balloons, or propaganda ? — with dubious significance. All in all, a fringe phenomenon I wouldn't call 'current German'.

I understand that philosophers (scientists for example) need a name for such things to think about and discuss it. However, 'current German' is inappropriate. One way out is to say 'Some people in Germany…' .
Last edited by aspirantMaster on 2023-10-10, 14:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby OiJoua » 2023-10-10, 14:22

aspirantMaster wrote:'Kif' ? No. Even if sources like Duden make such claims.
Well accepted synonyms are 'Gras', 'Haschisch', 'Cannabis', 'Marihuana'.

(Of course, every community in a given society can define its own terms, use it and later claim it's part of the country's(!) language. I can define 'Ifk' a term, use it in Germany and claim it's German.

For me this is a weird claim to make If something has become common enough to appear in dictionaries like Duden, DWDS, and Wiktionary, that's a different situation than something you make up yourself. Especially, for a language like German that is spoken in various varieties. No one is going to know every word, especially slang words, which I think this one qualifies. It doesn't mean they aren't real words in that language, just because you don't use it.
Sure, Kif is not a comon word and not everyone uses or knows it. But, it's real enough and German enough, so that DWDS shows frequency and distributions:
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If for you this doesn't mean it's a real word, okay. For me it does, but, it's like a slang. It's not something to be drag into an argument over.

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Re: Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby aspirantMaster » 2023-10-10, 14:37

The question all boils down to is this namely: What's an appropriate definition of 'German' ?

My answer: Be careful. If in doubt, better think of the matter as 'Some people in Germany (or Austria)…'.

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Re: Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby OiJoua » 2023-10-10, 15:05

aspirantMaster wrote:The question all boils down to is this namely: What's an appropriate definition of 'German' ?

My answer: Be careful. If in doubt, better think of the matter as 'Some people in Germany (or Austria)…'.

Which can also be indicate by 'some well-known dictionaries of German', don't you think?

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Re: Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby aspirantMaster » 2023-10-10, 21:48

Not unconditionally so.

Most sources, both on- and offline, are not purely philosophical in nature at all. Often there are commercial, political, moral or other reasons distorting things, e.g. a lexicon. For example, a publisher may include or exclude a term just because they think political correctness demands it.

If you see ads, be careful.

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Re: Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby aspirantMaster » 2023-10-11, 14:18

I agree that 'Kif(f)' can be considered German —according to an appropriate definition of German. But definition is important and not negligible. Many sources don't mind about basics because their motives don't mandate it.

Being commonly used over a long period of time by considerably many people in Germany, or even German citizens, doesn't make a term German language.

For example, I like Jews and the German Jewish community, which in principle is open to everyone, has been used for centuries specific terms such as אֱלֹהִים. Still, this is not usually considered German language and neither is 'Elohim' nor the pronunciation [.ʔɜ̆.lɔˈ.hiˑm].
There is, however, a continuity of 'some people in Germany' using this term regularly. But it's not a sociolect (variety) of German language.

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Re: Is this word of Arabic origin?

Postby Saim » 2023-10-15, 3:10

aspirantMaster wrote:For example, the gender movement likes asterisks. Still Jack and Jones never use asterisks. As of today, to say that asterisk within a word is German is an exaggeration, even if overly politically correct groups tend to use such language. These are merely precedents — or trial balloons, or propaganda ? — with dubious significance. All in all, a fringe phenomenon I wouldn't call 'current German'.


That's completely irrelevant since it's learned/affected usage, whereas "kiffen" is a natural part of people's idiolects.

aspirantMaster wrote:Being commonly used over a long period of time by considerably many people in Germany, or even German citizens, doesn't make a term German language.


What definition of "German language" do you have other than what people in the speech community actually say/write?

Your objection on the face of it seems fairly absurd. The idea that a word in a language doesn't exist because you don't personally use it is quite a myopic one.


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